spin

Just a point on the dating of the Assumption, it was written principally much earlier than the Herodian period, but it was reworked, adding new material about the Hasmoneans and Herod. The text is quite interested in the persecution under Antiochus IV -- not something of interest to a period over 150 years later.


spin

spin

Herod has had 2000 years of bad press. It's only normal that you have to question the sources about him. There's basically nothing of his propaganda left to compare with. Herod, as a loser in history, gets crap from everyone. People in those times did ruthless things. It's not uncommon for people to kill lots of enemies. Alexander Jannaeus killed loads of Pharisees. So what? We only really think of Herod and the fictitious massacre of the innocents -- and innocents here means babies. What has the following to do with babies?


spin

Seeker2000

The question is, what is meant by "as the Egyptians executed upon them"?

The apologist argues that this could be a reference to the story of the Pharaoh killing all the male children of the Hebrews, because he had been warned by an oracle that a Hebrew boy will lead to his downfall.

Do you know what this could be referring to?

Diogenes the Cynic

Exodus 1. There was no prophecy that any specific Hebrew boy would be a threat to the pharaoh, Exodus just says that the pharaoh was worried that the Hebrews were multiplying too much. This led o the whole Moses in the bullrushes story...itself a variation on the Sargon myth.



Does anyone know the actual Latin words that are being translated as "executed judgements" or have a link to the Latin online?

For that matter, is there a Hebrew text?

Chris Weimer

Agree with spin - there's nothing there that suggests the slaughter of young children.

Seeker2000

I read about Herod in a different context yesterday and then remembered this thread. I re-read it and have some additional thoughts about it, as follows:

Sorry, I don't know the Latin words, but I have an answer to your other question:

"It is known from a single 6th century manuscript in Latin that was discovered by Antonio Ceriani in the Ambrosian Library in Milan in the mid 19th century and published by him in 1861. Based on the literal translation of idioms within the text, it is generally accepted that the extant Latin version is a translation from Greek, with the Greek itself probably a translation from Hebrew."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Moses

So it seems that there is no Hebrew text available.

About the question what could be meant by "as the Egyptians executed upon them": Well, I think this could perhaps simply refer to the Exodus story in general. It is said that judgments will be imposed upon them for thirty-four years, which is the duration of Herod's reign. So it rather sounds like the author could be talking about a period of time and not about single events. So maybe he could just refer to the suppression of the Jews in Egypt in general?

post tenebras lux

"And he shall ..." is a future tense, as if The Assumption of Moses was claiming prophecies, but your friend, whilst not claiming supernatural inspiration for it, does think that it's a (within 10 years - in his opinion) reference to an event that had already passed.

So, even if he's right, he would also be claiming/pointing out that 'in those days' people used to write 'prophetic' books after the events they were claiming to be predicting.

And this helps his argument how?

jakejonesiv

I have noted here that Herod was accused being responsibile for the slaughter of innocents in Josephus Wars, only the event happened at the beginning of his career rather than the end.

Jake

Seeker2000

Well, this is an apocryphal work anyway, so I don't think the apologist has a problem with it containing after the fact prophecies.

Seeker2000

I don't really think that this event could be considered the massacre of the innocents. Josephus points out Herod's cruelty in general and names several atrocities he has done. In fact in this quote Josephus is stating that Herod killed everyone and not only the infants. No special significance is given to the infants here.