aa5874

If there are texts independent of Eusebius that bear witness to some Peter/Cephas in Rome and was martyred there, please quote passages from your sources so that these texts can be examined.

You are completely in error to state that the Gospels bear witness that some Peter/Cephas was matyred in Rome, no such account of Peter/Cehas is found any where in the Gospels of the NT.

But, strangely, in the Gospels, Peter/Cephas was a witness to and participated in fictitious events. Peter/Cehas, according to the Gospels, was on a high mountain with Jesus, the ascended one, where Jesus brought supposedly dead men to life and conversed with them.

And according to Eusebius, in Chuch History, it was Peter/Cephas himself who told the author of Mark about this event.

Mark 9.2-4 Again, here is an example of Peter/Cephas, according to the Gospels, physically carrying out a fictitious event. Peter/Cephas will WALK ON WATER to another sea water-walker called some Jesus, the ascended one.

Matthew 14.25-29 So, according to the Gospels, at one time Peter/Cephas was on a high mountain or walking on sea water, there is no indication he was in Rome, unless of course the high mountain was in Rome or the sea where Peter/Cephas walked was within the boundaries of Rome itself.

Jeffrey Gibson

Who ever said that the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John bear witness to Peter going to, or being, in Rome?

Jeffrey

Huon

I have looked at the page concerning Peter in the Catholic Encyclopedia. After all, if somebody has proofs, they should have collected them ?

Well, they have 12 "proofs" !

Proof #1, the oldest proof :

1 - the Gospel of John (John 21:18-19) : New American Standard Bible
18. "Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go."
19. Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me!"

Such a remark presupposes in the readers of the Fourth Gospel a knowledge of the death of Peter. ()

Proof #2
2 - St. Peter's First Epistle was written almost undoubtedly from Rome, since the salutation at the end reads: "She (the church) that is in Babylon (= Rome), chosen together with you, sends you greetings, and so does my son, Mark." (5:13).

Doug Shaver

I can't think of anything important to which it makes any difference at all.

It's the people who feel certain that he did go to Rome who seem to consider it to be of vital significance.

I cannot guess why a non-Christian would feel that way, but it's easy to see why Christian apologists would feel compelled to defend Peter's presence and martyrdom in Rome. A great deal of their dogma becomes practically indefensible if orthodox Christian tradition is not taken to be as infallible as the Bible itself.

Huon

Proof #3
3 - Papias of Hierapolis and Clement of Alexandria who both appeal to the testimony of the old presbyters (i.e., the disciples of the Apostles), we learn that Mark wrote his Gospel in Rome at the request of the Roman Christians, who desired a written memorial of the doctrine preached to them by St. Peter and his disciples (Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl.", II, xv; III, xl; VI, xiv); this is confirmed by Irenaeus (Adv. haer., III, i). In connection with this information concerning the Gospel of St. Mark, Eusebius, relying perhaps on an earlier source, says that Peter described Rome figuratively as Babylon in his First Epistle.

Papias of Hierapolis in Phrygia, called by St. Irenæus "a hearer of John, and companion of Polycarp, a man of old time". He wrote a work in five books, logion kyriakon exegesis, of which all but some fragments is lost. We learn something of the contents from the preface, part of which has been preserved by Eusebius (III, xxix)

Clement of Alexandria : date of birth unknown; died about the year 215.

mountainman, who is a great fan of Eusebius, will appreciate this proof #3, dating at best from the first half of the second century CE, if it is genuine.

Huon

Proof #4 :
4 - Clement of Rome in his First Epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 5 :

But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours; and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience.

(text of the Catho. Encyclopedia)

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/1clement.html
Estimated Range of Dating: 80-140 CE

unrighteous envy ?
Peter : when he had at length suffered martyrdom... when exactly and where exactly ?
Paul come to the extreme limit of the west : is this Rome ?

Huon

Proof #5 :
5 - Bishop Ignatius of Antioch (before 117) born in Syria, around the year 50; died at Rome between 98 and 117.
In his letter written at the beginning of the second century (before 117), while being brought to Rome for martyrdom, the venerable Bishop Ignatius of Antioch endeavours by every means to restrain the Roman Christians from striving for his pardon, remarking: "I issue you no commands, like Peter and Paul: they were Apostles, while I am but a captive" (Ad. Romans 4). The meaning of this remark must be that the two Apostles laboured personally in Rome, and with Apostolic authority preached the Gospel there.

The meaning of this remark must be ...
Perhaps you did not understand ...

Huon

Proof #6 :

Bishop Dionysius of Corinth, in his letter to the Roman Church in the time of Pope Soter (165-74), says: "You have therefore by your urgent exhortation bound close together the sowing of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth. For both planted the seed of the Gospel also in Corinth, and together instructed us, just as they likewise taught in the same place in Italy and at the same time suffered martyrdom" (in Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl.", II, xxviii).

At best, second half of second century, at worst ask mountainman.

Huon

Proof #7 – Bishop Irenaeus of Lyons, second half of the second century.
Proof #8 - Clement of Alexandria, teacher in the catechetical school of that city from about 190, quoted by Eusebius (Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl.", IV, xiv)
Proof #9 – Tertullian, my post #70 in this thread

:notworthy:

Huon

Proof #10 - The Roman, Caius, who lived in Rome in the time of Pope Zephyrinus (198-217), wrote in his "Dialogue with Proclus" (in Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl.", II, xxviii) directed against the Montanists: "But I can show the trophies of the Apostles. If you care to go to the Vatican or to the road to Ostia, thou shalt find the trophies of those who have founded this Church". By the trophies (tropaia) Eusebius understands the graves of the Apostles, but his view is opposed by modern investigators who believe that the place of execution is meant. For our purpose it is immaterial which opinion is correct, as the testimony retains its full value in either case.