Jayrok

Many Christians as well as many Jews, I imagine, see the Bible as being the inspired word of God. I'm also curious as to what these groups of people think about the idea of the original topic.

No Robots

Then why don't you go to an appropriate board and ask them, instead of fouling up this place with all this sludge?

Chris Weimer

Seconded. This place probably is the [b]worst[/i] place to get opinions from Christians or Jews. While there are Christians and Jews here, they're hardly the representative group that you're (presumably) looking for.

jeffevnz

In that sense, yes, several of us are saying that some (if not all) of the original writers were henotheists.
And, just to be clear, are you saying the J, E and P writers were all monotheists?
You're right that there's no explicit statement that other gods exist, although some passages come damn close (consider Genesis 3:22, especially in light of the parallel phrase in 3:5; hell, consider 3:5 by itself). The several passages where Yahweh/El/elohim refer to "us", the widespread usage of the plural form "elohim", and the comments comparing Yahweh to other gods are all strange if he's supposed to be the only one that exists.

There is no way to know for sure whether some gods should be seen as false, or simply subordinate to Yahweh. But put yourself in the shoes of the writers. Say you're a monotheist arguing that other gods don't exist. How would you express that? Now suppose you're a henotheist trying to convince some polytheists that other gods are subordinate to Yahweh. How would you express that? The cited passages are what you would expect for the latter, but require some mental gymnastics to fit the first one.

As to the first question, several possibilities come to mind. Maybe the redactors were trying to maintain as much continuity as possible with prior traditions. Think about the way Christian evangelists converted Europeans and Native Americans, by teaching Christianity as an alternative interpretation of the native religion, with one of their gods equated to Yahweh, and others demoted to demons or angels. (It's a fair bet that the redactors did exactly that with Abraham's three visitors in chapter 18... ) Maybe the redactors were satisfied with removing only explicit references to other gods. Maybe they were trying to write a compromise document in which both monotheists and henotheists could see what they wanted. Or maybe it was just judged at some point that the scripture was too sacred to alter any further. (Consider the spelling and grammar mistakes that survive to this day.) Maybe some combination of all of the above happened... This, of course, is all speculation. The point is just that your first question, while a good one, does not shoot the theory down since there are several possibilities, all with precedent, which would account for the passages being left in henotheistic form.


Also consider that the story of Noah and the flood, which, although it does not contain any traces of henotheism AFAIK, is a clear example of a story in Genesis that was originally polytheistic, but was edited into a monotheistic one. Put another way, there's at least one original writer who was not a monotheist.

Jayrok

Sorry for fouling up this place with so much sludge. Have a nice day.

Chris Weimer

I'm not saying anything. I'm asking you to explain. All you've done is post verses and expect everyone to automatically agree. If you're going to post verses, please make the proper distinctions, the proper explanations.

I've considered them, and I've rejected them without some sort of explanation on your part.

This is ignorant of the surrounding cultural context. I quote from a friend of mine:

This is still a mere claim until you can explain your reasoning.

But HOW!?!? You never explain why you think this way. I cannot read your mind, sir.

No Robots

Spinoza (TTP, chap. 13) on El and its plural:

Thus El, or Eloah, signifies powerful, as is well known, and only applies to God in respect to His supremacy, as when we call Paul an apostle; the faculties of his power are set forth in an accompanying adjective, as El, great, awful, just, merciful, &c., or else all are understood at once by the use of El in the plural number, with a singular signification, an expression frequently adopted in Scripture.

Joan of Bark

By monotheistic, I mean that they believed in other Gods. I have no doubt that they were (usually) monolatrous, in that they worshipped just YHWH.

Over and over again in the Torah there are references to other Gods. The references (with a couple of exceptions) do not state that they were false gods, only that they were gods that Hebrews did not know; that is, gods of other peoples. Solomon's remark about the building of the temple is instructive and convincing.

If I'm mis-reading your argument, let me know.

Chris Weimer

I'm not making an argument. I'm asking you to make your argument. I don't trust your word - I need you to carefully explicate your position with precise exegesis.

Joan of Bark

I thought I had. King Solomon mentions other gods in 2 Chronicles. See the quote in my earlier post. YHWH refers to other gods -- frequently. If they didn't believe in other gods, why did they keep referring to them? Over and over again, it is stated: 'I AM YHWH, your God', not 'I am God', as a monotheistic culture would. Why is this not evidence of polytheism????