Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Lógos Sokratikós · 11-26-2006, 06:36 PM

It's the joyous afterlife in pop American religiosity (the "he's in heaven now, dear" parents tell kids), not so much the god/s, which was the focus of my OP on the suckyness of atheism. Actually, more than atheism its naturalism (quite overlapping but distinct nevertheless). "Traditional denial of supernatural entities and afterlives", as Fatpie42 put it.

BadBadBad · 11-26-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatpie42

I guess he's a traditionalist. Or too much of a stereotype. Take your pick.

P.S. I am too. As are a great many of the atheists on this thread. Traditional denial of supernatural entities and afterlives, not to mention pixies and fairyfolk.

Atheism only has to do with a lack of belief in gods and religions. To be more all inclusive, what you're getting at then is skepticism. Then our OP boils down to skepticism sucks. That's quite a mouthful.

BadBadBad · 11-26-2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lógos Sokratikós

It's the joyous afterlife in pop American religiosity (the "he's in heaven now, dear" parents tell kids), not so much the god/s, which was the focus of my OP on the suckyness of atheism. Actually, more than atheism its naturalism (quite overlapping but distinct nevertheless). "Traditional denial of supernatural entities and afterlives", as Fatpie42 put it.

If you want to go with naturalism, as opposed to skepticism, then really your OP boils down to reality sucks and hence you're supporting the opposite, fantasy, imagination, and wishful thinking is preferable over reality. Why didn't you just say that in your OP instead of laying all the ills of reality onto atheism?

JamesBannon · 11-26-2006, 07:05 PM

Levels of description. On one level, looked at from the point-of-view of the universe, it is a cold and pitiless place but from the point-of-view of human life it is not generally speaking so bad though many have an incredibly hard time. We create our own meanings, in part that is what religion is for, but it is perfectly possible to have meaning without religiosity.

sharon45 · 11-26-2006, 08:30 PM

Lógos, you were lucky in the fact that you probably loved your grandfather so very much and now even with his absence, you can still continue to cherish the memories of him. Others like myself however, feel the loss of people, but not much past that.

I am anti-theism though, and I think it would be a far better world if there never was any kind of religion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

"We are all going to die someday, and we are the lucky ones. The number of people who could have been born but who never were is like the sands on all the beaches of the world." Your grandfather was unique but now he is gone. Like you, he had the privilege of living, of being born and of dying. Countless of other potential "individuals" never had that opportunity.

I just personally don't agree with this.

I am not interested in having only one chocolate bar to eat while completely savouring it and thinking of myself as to being one of the truly privileged. If I was really being respected and mattered at all, then I would have first been given a choice, and that choice would have been to give that one chocolate bar to someone else who was not privileged enough to be given one but would honestly enjoy it as it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

No, the lucky ones are those who are born and who are able to experience death.

Then as I said before, it should be strickly reserved for those that would completely appreciate this idea.

espritch · 11-26-2006, 08:46 PM

Lógos, I'm sorry for your loss. But shouldn't the title of this thread really have been "Losing someone you love sucks"? Do you really believe it would suck any less for a theist?

There may be comfort in believing you will be reunited with the departed again one day. But religion can also add to the pain. After the Indonesian tsunami, there was a story in the paper quoting a woman asking what sin she had committed to cause God to punish her by drowning her daughter. Every time I hear about the comfort of religion, I think about that woman and the way her religious belief added guilt to her pain like salt to a wound.

Your grandfather may not have meant anything to the universe, but he meant something to you, and as I see it, that is the only real sense in which a life can have meaning anyway.

nygreenguy · 11-26-2006, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

"They" did WHAT?!!!!!
I'm speechless.

As were we. After removing 3 lobes of lung at that as well, they took her oxycontin away. It was hella expensive, and she had no insurance. (worst part is, she cashed in her life insurance for $$$ 2 week b4 diagnosis) so they took the pain meds away. Do you know what its like still being a teenager and watching your mother scream in pain? And people wonder why im a socialist.

yalla · 11-27-2006, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nygreenguy

As were we. After removing 3 lobes of lung at that as well, they took her oxycontin away. It was hella expensive, and she had no insurance. (worst part is, she cashed in her life insurance for $$$ 2 week b4 diagnosis) so they took the pain meds away. Do you know what its like still being a teenager and watching your mother scream in pain? And people wonder why im a socialist.

I'm still fucking speechless.

The enormous un-humanity of that astounds me.

I watched my [financially poor] friend die of cancer and she was given free pain killer all the way.

The whole concept of medical/health for profit before people pisses me off.

A few years ago I spent weeks in hospital, some in intensive care, a few major operations, access to specialists and tests by the truckload.
Cost.....NIL [except a lifetime of taxes of course].

Thats the way it should be.

Jedi Mind Trick · 11-27-2006, 06:23 AM

That is why I grasp at theistic straws.

Lógos Sokratikós · 11-27-2006, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by espritch

Lógos, I'm sorry for your loss. But shouldn't the title of this thread really have been "Losing someone you love sucks"? Do you really believe it would suck any less for a theist?

Yes, my OP was about losing someone and "not having theistic afterlife beliefs to comfort you" sucks. But, number one: The title can only be "so" long. Number two: My intention was making my OP by a point of departure about a discussion about the "suckyness" of atheism, or "Suckyness: Theism versus atheism", or something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by espritch

There may be comfort in believing you will be reunited with the departed again one day. But religion can also add to the pain. After the Indonesian tsunami, there was a story in the paper quoting a woman asking what sin she had committed to cause God to punish her by drowning her daughter. Every time I hear about the comfort of religion, I think about that woman and the way her religious belief added guilt to her pain like salt to a wound.

Your grandfather may not have meant anything to the universe, but he meant something to you, and as I see it, that is the only real sense in which a life can have meaning anyway.

I agree with your last paragraph. On the other hand, I don't think you can blame religion because of some loons any more than you can blame atheism because of some other loons. Religion can be the source of much angst and cruelty, but it can also inspire compassion and upright lives. You have Torquemada, but you also have Gandhi. I don't agree with Gandhi's asceticism, but I do believe he left the world a little better than how he found it.

Are theists better off than atheists when it comes to mourning and the prospect of your own imminent personal death, because of the afterlife belief?

11-27-2006, 06:23 AM	#59
Jedi Mind Trick Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Indianaplolis Posts: 4,998	Atheism sucks That is why I grasp at theistic straws.

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11-26-2006, 06:36 PM	#51
Lógos Sokratikós Contributor Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Virtually right here where you are Posts: 11,138	It's the joyous afterlife in pop American religiosity (the "he's in heaven now, dear" parents tell kids), not so much the god/s, which was the focus of my OP on the suckyness of atheism. Actually, more than atheism its naturalism (quite overlapping but distinct nevertheless). "Traditional denial of supernatural entities and afterlives", as Fatpie42 put it.

11-26-2006, 07:05 PM	#54
JamesBannon Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Paisley, Scotland Posts: 5,819	Levels of description. On one level, looked at from the point-of-view of the universe, it is a cold and pitiless place but from the point-of-view of human life it is not generally speaking so bad though many have an incredibly hard time. We create our own meanings, in part that is what religion is for, but it is perfectly possible to have meaning without religiosity.

11-26-2006, 08:46 PM	#56
espritch Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Charlotte NC Posts: 2,038	Lógos, I'm sorry for your loss. But shouldn't the title of this thread really have been "Losing someone you love sucks"? Do you really believe it would suck any less for a theist? There may be comfort in believing you will be reunited with the departed again one day. But religion can also add to the pain. After the Indonesian tsunami, there was a story in the paper quoting a woman asking what sin she had committed to cause God to punish her by drowning her daughter. Every time I hear about the comfort of religion, I think about that woman and the way her religious belief added guilt to her pain like salt to a wound. Your grandfather may not have meant anything to the universe, but he meant something to you, and as I see it, that is the only real sense in which a life can have meaning anyway.

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