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Old 07-27-2009, 09:42 PM   #11
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Or, maybe the whole thing started with gentiles re-interpreting the Septuagint :huh:
Although many will, I don't find this at all implausible. Imagine the superstitious polytheists of Greece/Rome being handed this book and told it contains ancient wisdom. Would someone take that and run with it? I don't see why not - possibly even as an official attempt to undermine the more traditional messianic movement and prevent a 3rd major Jewish uprising.
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Old 07-27-2009, 09:51 PM   #12
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Up to or around 135 CE it would appear that Jews in general still expected a human only Messiah, even after the destruction of Temple at around 70 CE. In order for Simon Bar Cocheba to have been successful, and eventually believed to be the Messiah, he must have had or was likely to have had the support of virtually all Jews or at least the vast majority of Jews.

The God/man Messiah is anti-Jewish, the anti-Christ of the Jews.

In gMatthew 5-7, the anti-Christ, the God/man Messiah, would teach the Jews to abandon the teaching of the Jewish Messiah. or Jewish Laws.

Examine Exodus.
Exodus 21.23-25
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23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
This is the God/man Messiah, the anti-Christ of the Jews


Matthew 5.38-45
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38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
And now the words of Judas Maccabeus a messianic figure as found in Antiquities of the Jews 12
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"O my fellow soldiers, no other time remains more opportune than the present for courage and contempt of dangers; for if you now fight manfully, you may recover your liberty, which, as it is a thing of itself agreeable to all men, so it proves to be to us much more desirable, by its affording us the liberty of worshipping God.

Since therefore you are in such circumstances at present, you must either recover that liberty, and so regain a happy and blessed way of living, which is that according to our laws, and the customs of our country, or to submit to the most opprobrious sufferings; nor will any seed of your nation remain if you be beat in this battle.

Fight therefore manfully; and suppose that you must die, though you do not fight; but believe, that besides such glorious rewards as those of the liberty of your country, of your laws, of your religion, you shall then obtain everlasting glory.

Prepare yourselves, therefore, and put yourselves into such an agreeable posture, that you may be ready to fight with the enemy as soon as it is day tomorrow morning."
It is clear that Jesus was the anti-Christ of the Jews, perhaps only non-Jews would believe Jesus the Messiah was God.
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:01 PM   #13
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That is a very early argument against Christianity that Christians violently struggled with--if the Old Testament is correct, they are supposed to believe in one God only, so how can Jesus be God? And it was one of many reasons for Jews to disbelieve the claims of Jesus as the Messiah. That is probably why the religion spread much more among the gentiles than the Jews and why the Apostle Paul became the torchbearer of Christianity instead of the Apostle Peter.
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Old 07-27-2009, 10:48 PM   #14
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That is a very early argument against Christianity that Christians violently struggled with--if the Old Testament is correct, they are supposed to believe in one God only, so how can Jesus be God? And it was one of many reasons for Jews to disbelieve the claims of Jesus as the Messiah. That is probably why the religion spread much more among the gentiles than the Jews and why the Apostle Paul became the torchbearer of Christianity instead of the Apostle Peter.
There is no evidence that the Pauline writers were torch-bearers of Christianity. Justin Martyr did not use the Pauline writings anywhere at all in his defense of Christianity up to the middle of the 2nd century. Theophilus of Antioch and Athenagoras did not appear to know anything about Pauline letters.

It is also erroneous to think that all christians believed in the identical God/man Jesus as found in the NT. It would appear that by the 2nd century the God/man Christ concept was out-numbered maybe more than 15 to 1.

This is a partial list of other Christian sects.
Valentinus, Ptolemy, Colorbasus, Marcus, Simon Magus, Menander, Saturninus, Basilides, Carpocrates, Cerinthus, Ebionites, Nicolaitanes, Cerdo, Marcion, Tatian, the Encratites and the Barbeliotes
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Old 07-27-2009, 11:50 PM   #15
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I consider the Jewish concept to be only technically different than the Christian concept; the main problem with both is that the messiah eventually dies and things aren't any better than before.
Many centuries later Maimonides said that the only difference between his times and Messianic times is whether the Jews are in a state of subordination to foreign nations. Others expected a more significant change.
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Old 07-28-2009, 12:55 AM   #16
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That is a very early argument against Christianity that Christians violently struggled with--if the Old Testament is correct, they are supposed to believe in one God only, so how can Jesus be God? And it was one of many reasons for Jews to disbelieve the claims of Jesus as the Messiah. That is probably why the religion spread much more among the gentiles than the Jews and why the Apostle Paul became the torchbearer of Christianity instead of the Apostle Peter.
There is no evidence that the Pauline writers were torch-bearers of Christianity. Justin Martyr did not use the Pauline writings anywhere at all in his defense of Christianity up to the middle of the 2nd century. Theophilus of Antioch and Athenagoras did not appear to know anything about Pauline letters.

It is also erroneous to think that all christians believed in the identical God/man Jesus as found in the NT. It would appear that by the 2nd century the God/man Christ concept was out-numbered maybe more than 15 to 1.

This is a partial list of other Christian sects.
Valentinus, Ptolemy, Colorbasus, Marcus, Simon Magus, Menander, Saturninus, Basilides, Carpocrates, Cerinthus, Ebionites, Nicolaitanes, Cerdo, Marcion, Tatian, the Encratites and the Barbeliotes
I think you are right in a respect. The line of Christian thinking we know today did not seem to appreciate Paul until late in the game. Marcion made him the central apostle. He adopted revisions of the Pauline letters into his canon. I suppose Paul was popular among the gnostics. I overstated when I said that Paul became the torchbearer of Christianity. He certainly didn't become so immediately.
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Old 07-28-2009, 03:07 AM   #17
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[LIST][*]When did the idea start that the Messiah was a literal son on God?
This belief predated Christianity, and seen with Hellenism [Mitrash], and Roman, Egyptian divine emperors. It is a factually evidenced premise which makes the Christian doctine non-original.

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[*]What sort of person would be prepared to accept this "variant" idea in the first century?
There is no scenario possible to vindicate this premise. It contradicts Monotheism and the first two Commandments. To extend, even God could not effect such a premise - based on the factor of God is and represents indevisable truth.

Clearly, there was a good reason the Hebrew scriptures assured a Messiah would be a plain, normal human in every sense of the world. There is no merit in a spiritual force performing miracles or resurrecting himself - there is when this refers to humanity. Moses was a Messiah of his time - and remains the most believed human - by period of time, cencus and impact. And he was just a man.
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:27 AM   #18
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Or, maybe the whole thing started with gentiles re-interpreting the Septuagint :huh:
Although many will, I don't find this at all implausible. Imagine the superstitious polytheists of Greece/Rome being handed this book and told it contains ancient wisdom. Would someone take that and run with it? I don't see why not - possibly even as an official attempt to undermine the more traditional messianic movement and prevent a 3rd major Jewish uprising.
All one has to do is read the context of Matthew's "prophecies" about Jesus or even Paul's exegesis of the LXX to realize that this quote-mining and reinterpretation happened. Even Philo reinterpreted the LXX to get his Logos concept, so it wasn't even restricted to non-Jews.
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:42 AM   #19
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Or, maybe the whole thing started with gentiles re-interpreting the Septuagint :huh:
Although many will, I don't find this at all implausible. Imagine the superstitious polytheists of Greece/Rome being handed this book and told it contains ancient wisdom. Would someone take that and run with it? I don't see why not - possibly even as an official attempt to undermine the more traditional messianic movement and prevent a 3rd major Jewish uprising.
Thanks Spam. I'm skeptical about conspiracy theories as I think you are also, but your scenario seems at least as plausible as the Jewish origin paradigm. The Pliny evidence suggests some kind of Christian activity before bar-Kochba but who knows if this included Jews, it could have been god-fearers or just converted pagans.
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:52 AM   #20
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This is the book that I am currently reading that might be of interest to some here:

The Only True God: Early Christian Monotheism in Its Jewish Context (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Review
"This work puts forward a compelling thesis, questioning the default assumption that what separated first-century Jews and Christians was the Christian elevation of Jesus of Nazareth to divine status as equal with YHWH. McGrath shows decisively that this was not so, arguing with clarity and force and engaging the relevant bodies of primary and secondary literature with precision. A significant and useful book." Paul J. Griffiths, author of Lying: An Augustinian Theology of Duplicity (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Product Description
Monotheism, the idea that there is only one true God, is a powerful religious concept that was shaped by competing ideas and the problems they raised. Surveying New Testament writings and Jewish sources from before and after the rise of Christianity, James F. McGrath argues that even the most developed Christologies in the New Testament fit within the context of first century Jewish "monotheism." In doing so, he pinpoints more precisely when the parting of ways took place over the issue of God's oneness, and he explores philosophical ideas such as "creation out of nothing," which caused Jews and Christians to develop differing concepts and definitions about God.
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