Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 11-17-2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by Pouye
You are just about right!

OK, but apparently there are strings attached.

One problem, though... we are, according to the Bible, created as eternal beings -- so no annihilation, and no ending your life.

So, if I use my free will to choose annihilation, I'm SOL? God insists that I must eternally suffer excluded from his presence, whether that's in a hell he created or in a hell he didn't create? (BTW, if God didn't create Hell, whatever it is, who or what did?) That's one big string there.

God will honor your decision... but a decision not to be with God and those things which are associated with good (and therefore, with God, including love, peace, kindness, pleasure, intimacy, etc.) is a decision to be without God and also without goodness. Peace is good, so being without God is to live without peace for eternity.

There's that big string again. Exercise your free will to choose to believe in and serve God or not, but if you don't, you'll live "without peace" and "without goodness" for eternity. And without free will choice to avoid, or escape, that fate.

(BTW, I've never made a "decision not to be with God". I simply don't believe the myth).

BTW, God did not create "hell". God doesn't torture people in hell. That is a farce.

Who, pray tell, set up the system where those who "fail the test" are doomed to spend an eternity without goodness or peace, and without any escape from that miserable, never-ending existence? If hell is the absense of God, then God creates it by withdrawing his presence, God tortures the people there by withdrawing his presence, and God insures that their suffering will be eternal (and denies their free will) by not allowing them to escape the suffering.

What's a "farce" is this typical lame reasoning to try to get God off the hook for the very system he created.

God is the most generous, loving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos.

And also the most absent. Why is that? (And why would such a "generous, loving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos" allow the majority of humanity to suffer for eternity as you describe? Surely such a God would not allow that...)

He has made humans with free will and he has made us for a purpose: to relate lovingly to Him and others.

So the "free will" allows us to either choose this purpose or suffer for eternity? Sounds like a might big string attached - to the trigger of a gun held to our heads - to me.

I don't believe we are accidents, modified monkeys or random mistakes.

Well, good for you. Neither do I.

And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made -- a purpose, by the way, which would allow us to flourish more than living any other way -- then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along in our lives, which is separation from Him.

So God doesn't "torture" us in Hell, but he "gives us what we're asking for." NOTE: neither I, nor anyone else, asks for an eternity of suffering, however it's described or ascribed.

That is what you are asking for, Mageth. The choice is up to you.

No, that's not what I'm asking for. Remember, I don't believe in god(s), so I don't ask god(s) for anything, and I see, nor exercise, no "choice" in the matter.

When any society is built, the first thing they build is definately not prisons. Prisons are built because people refuse to live in a way which society can tolerate. Their own actions do not allow them access to the rest of society. Hell is similar to a prison in this regard. Hell is the natural consequences of people living a life where they say, "I don't care if I am seperated from God, and therefore I will choose not to even believe in Him. I want to do things my way, so I will declare myself as a god."

Great. I'm safe, then, because I have never said that in my life, I don't choose not to believe in God, and I've never declared myself a god. Woo hoo.

People's character is not formed by decisions all at once, but by thousands of little choices they make every day. Each day people are preparing themselves for either an eternity with God or eternity without Him. In fact, if a person doesn't fall passionately in love with God, then to force that person to be around Him forever -- doing the kinds of things that people who love Him would want to do -- would be utterly uncomfortable.

If God doesn't want us to be uncomfortable, then why any kind of Hell at all?

I am excited about being with Jesus for eternity. The thought of being with God, His Father, who loved me enough to sacrifice His own Son so that I can have a relationship with Him, gives me more than just goosebumps! I love God. Plain and simple.

Well, bully for you. But I thought Jesus was currently sitting, exalted, at God's right hand? So what's this supposed sacrifice you speak of?

I love people, too... not just because God loves them, but because I realize how incredible people really are and how much they matter.

So do I. That's why I'd never condemn nor allow anyone to suffer for eternity in any sort of "hell", whether the literal fire-and-brimstone type or the "chosen", namby-pamby "absense of goodness" hell you describe. I can only assume that the God you speak of doesn't love people as much as I. Nor would I get "more than just goosebumps" from the thought of being with such a God for eternity.

Light · 11-17-2003, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yahzi

1. A planetary body is not a planet, even though all planets are planetary bodies. Hmmm???

2. Regarded by some? Can you name anyone who doubts that Io is a moon of Jupiter?

3. You do realize that the word "moon," when not capitalized, refers to objects other than the Moon, right?

4. The proper name of Earth's moon is generally regarded as "Luna." Certainly if you use the proper names "Terra" and "Luna" no one will be confused about what objects you are referring to.

Are you saying that a) the Australian aborigne religion is derivative of Egyptian religion, or b) the Australian aborignes do not have religious beliefs?

No. But if you want to know how God works take a look at Egypt. This is the basis of Christian Religion. (RE Legion)

I'm a big fan of law and order. But I think laws should be based on reasons, arguments, and evidence: and you think they should be based on your crackpot theories about ancient Egypt and invisible sky-fairies. Guess which one of us is a fascist?

Have you even researched the Egyptian belief system? I don't believe in Fascism. Law and order is a good idea. . Hey, the Military could have shot Al Capone and then they wouldn't have to go to war! Fantastic!

Try to pay attention: even if I conceded that God Created the Universe, how am I entitled to conclude He still exists? From all appearences, the place runs without any particular intervention, so what makes you think your Creator didn't expire minutes after the Creation? Logically demonstrating that the Universe was Created tells you nothing about the Creator other than the fact that He could Create. Your assumptions that the Creator is good, or still able to Create, or even still existant are simply assumptions.

Eternal has a time limit, according to you? He IS Good ... but are you?

Say... why don't you go convert all those Christians first, ok? You can work on us atheists after you've convinced the Catholics to give up their crucifixes, ok?

How about if I can convince the Catholics to give up their crucifixes AND convince the devil and satan from playing silly buggers?

Imagine the dummy that wears a symbol of torture as His or Her religious symbol. Must be masochists I suppose.

Maybe I could convince the people to form normal married couples and convince the criminals to become decent people too. I could convice the terrorists to stop terrorising people and we could all live in peace.

I could try convincing everyone that corruption does not help and neither does having more than one child. Spending trillions on warfare and anti-crime measures is not really as productive as family planning to reduce population, and curtailing the activities of criminals, and many other things. Resources don't last forever you know. Decent people need them too.

Even Christ didn't have much luck getting people to give up on crucifiction.

Actually there is quite a bit of variation. Mars is said to have two moons, so they are given different names.

Io and Europa are more planet sized. It depends who you talk too, or what you are reading and its age. Sometimes a moon is referred to as a satellite

Yahzi · 11-17-2003, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Light
But if you want to know how God works take a look at Egypt. This is the basis of Christian Religion.

This presumes that Christian Religion is correct. This assumption is wholly unsupported, and unwarranted. You will find that people on this message board will not accept unsupported assumptions.

Quote:

Have you even researched the Egyptian belief system?

Perhaps English is not your native langauge, but you are so sloppy with proper nouns that I actually have no idea what you are talking about. What Egyptian belief system? Do you mean Ra or Allah? Did you miss the last few hundred years, where Egypt became a Muslim nation?

Quote:

Eternal has a time limit, according to you? He IS Good ... but are you?

This is so irrelevant to the comment it follows that I can only conclude you are having difficulties with the langauge.

Quote:

How about if I can convince the Catholics to give up their crucifixes

I concede that will be a difficult task. The point was that convincing atheists of your views is both a) more difficult, and b) utterly pointless, since we agree with you that crucifixes are silly. Just for rather different reasons.

Quote:

Actually there is quite a bit of variation. Mars is said to have two moons, so they are given different names.

You really need to brush up on your English literacy. This comment not only agrees with my original point, but demonstrates that you failed to grasp the idea that the name of Earth's moon is Luna.

Quote:

Io and Europa are more planet sized. It depends who you talk too, or what you are reading and its age.

Citation, please.

Quote:

Sometimes a moon is referred to as a satellite

I know that. Really, I understand this subject. The problem is that you do not.

Light · 11-18-2003, 04:02 AM

But then you don't understand that the "ancient" Egyptian belief system IS the CORRECT Belief system and that is why you STILL say that you don't believe in God, whereas I do.

This system shows how God works, it is therefore common to ALL people, whatever their religion.

I mean Ptah, Pater, Father. The God Force. Nobody that you can see here.

I am Scottish and educated in England and Singapore.

We invented the language.

"The Stargate Conspiracy" should make good reading for you.

And you shoud compare the Bible to Egypt and the Original System.

Pharaoh = Enlightened One.

Sensei Meela · 11-18-2003, 07:48 AM

....can we get this thread back on track? Whether Io is a planet or not is a thread for a different forum, Egyptology vs. whatever too.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sensei Meela
Technically, I think ["It is God's will that suffering exist, and reducing suffering goes against His will"] is an equivocation of terms. In Greek (at least), two words for 'will' are used -- one which means His 'counsel' (or determination) and another which means His 'desire'. The former is unchallengable, the latter everyone challenges.

God 'wills' (Sense 1) that evil exist because He 'wills' (Sense 2) that we choose good over evil -- such a choice would logically require evil. (I assume that suffering is caused by evil, for the sake of argument).

Our Free Will* depends upon 1) our ability to distinguish between Good and Evil (assuming God is just) and 2) our ability to choose between them (obviously).

So, 'restricting' Free-Will by preventing a rape (and thus reducing suffering) could still be in accordance with God's 'will' (Sense 2) in that He 'desires' for us to reduce suffering because it wouldn't violate either condition for Free Will to exist. This, of course, assumes that it is the mere existence of Free Will and not the magnitude that is important to God, and ignores that 'omnisciencevsfreewill' train-wreck.

We won't ever be able to eliminate suffering -- only God can do that. But it looks like He won't, if one believes in an eternity of Hell-fire. So God cannot be maximally belevolent unless one considers the vastness of suffering promised to be endured there 'necessary'. And with an omnipotent God, I don't see why that would be.

*(Free Will has various meanings: 'the ability to choose between Good and Evil', 'the ability to choose to believe in God'...of course, this little diatribe of mine uses the former sense)

Sorry to subject you to this once again.

11-17-2003, 01:08 PM	#81
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Re: Almost... Originally posted by Pouye You are just about right! OK, but apparently there are strings attached. One problem, though... we are, according to the Bible, created as eternal beings -- so no annihilation, and no ending your life. So, if I use my free will to choose annihilation, I'm SOL? God insists that I must eternally suffer excluded from his presence, whether that's in a hell he created or in a hell he didn't create? (BTW, if God didn't create Hell, whatever it is, who or what did?) That's one big string there. God will honor your decision... but a decision not to be with God and those things which are associated with good (and therefore, with God, including love, peace, kindness, pleasure, intimacy, etc.) is a decision to be without God and also without goodness. Peace is good, so being without God is to live without peace for eternity. There's that big string again. Exercise your free will to choose to believe in and serve God or not, but if you don't, you'll live "without peace" and "without goodness" for eternity. And without free will choice to avoid, or escape, that fate. (BTW, I've never made a "decision not to be with God". I simply don't believe the myth). BTW, God did not create "hell". God doesn't torture people in hell. That is a farce. Who, pray tell, set up the system where those who "fail the test" are doomed to spend an eternity without goodness or peace, and without any escape from that miserable, never-ending existence? If hell is the absense of God, then God creates it by withdrawing his presence, God tortures the people there by withdrawing his presence, and God insures that their suffering will be eternal (and denies their free will) by not allowing them to escape the suffering. What's a "farce" is this typical lame reasoning to try to get God off the hook for the very system he created. God is the most generous, loving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos. And also the most absent. Why is that? (And why would such a "generous, loving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos" allow the majority of humanity to suffer for eternity as you describe? Surely such a God would not allow that...) He has made humans with free will and he has made us for a purpose: to relate lovingly to Him and others. So the "free will" allows us to either choose this purpose or suffer for eternity? Sounds like a might big string attached - to the trigger of a gun held to our heads - to me. I don't believe we are accidents, modified monkeys or random mistakes. Well, good for you. Neither do I. And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made -- a purpose, by the way, which would allow us to flourish more than living any other way -- then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along in our lives, which is separation from Him. So God doesn't "torture" us in Hell, but he "gives us what we're asking for." NOTE: neither I, nor anyone else, asks for an eternity of suffering, however it's described or ascribed. That is what you are asking for, Mageth. The choice is up to you. No, that's not what I'm asking for. Remember, I don't believe in god(s), so I don't ask god(s) for anything, and I see, nor exercise, no "choice" in the matter. When any society is built, the first thing they build is definately not prisons. Prisons are built because people refuse to live in a way which society can tolerate. Their own actions do not allow them access to the rest of society. Hell is similar to a prison in this regard. Hell is the natural consequences of people living a life where they say, "I don't care if I am seperated from God, and therefore I will choose not to even believe in Him. I want to do things my way, so I will declare myself as a god." Great. I'm safe, then, because I have never said that in my life, I don't choose not to believe in God, and I've never declared myself a god. Woo hoo. People's character is not formed by decisions all at once, but by thousands of little choices they make every day. Each day people are preparing themselves for either an eternity with God or eternity without Him. In fact, if a person doesn't fall passionately in love with God, then to force that person to be around Him forever -- doing the kinds of things that people who love Him would want to do -- would be utterly uncomfortable. If God doesn't want us to be uncomfortable, then why any kind of Hell at all? I am excited about being with Jesus for eternity. The thought of being with God, His Father, who loved me enough to sacrifice His own Son so that I can have a relationship with Him, gives me more than just goosebumps! I love God. Plain and simple. Well, bully for you. But I thought Jesus was currently sitting, exalted, at God's right hand? So what's this supposed sacrifice you speak of? I love people, too... not just because God loves them, but because I realize how incredible people really are and how much they matter. So do I. That's why I'd never condemn nor allow anyone to suffer for eternity in any sort of "hell", whether the literal fire-and-brimstone type or the "chosen", namby-pamby "absense of goodness" hell you describe. I can only assume that the God you speak of doesn't love people as much as I. Nor would I get "more than just goosebumps" from the thought of being with such a God for eternity.

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11-18-2003, 04:02 AM	#84
Light Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Here, There & Everywhere Posts: 1,253	But then you don't understand that the "ancient" Egyptian belief system IS the CORRECT Belief system and that is why you STILL say that you don't believe in God, whereas I do. This system shows how God works, it is therefore common to ALL people, whatever their religion. I mean Ptah, Pater, Father. The God Force. Nobody that you can see here. I am Scottish and educated in England and Singapore. We invented the language. "The Stargate Conspiracy" should make good reading for you. And you shoud compare the Bible to Egypt and the Original System. Pharaoh = Enlightened One.

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