mountainman

Thanks Iskander.

I have bolded and underlined above the key words for the OP.

The key words above are "compel " and "force".

The question is under what circumstances would it be acceptable (if at all) that people are compelled or forced to enter this God's kingdom?

Do we have before us a holy writ that substantiates forced conversion?









εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Iskander

Thanks mountainman, it is a pleasure to do business with you.


No.
No religion justifies forced conversion; we do not have a holy writ used by religious managers to force conversion, to my knowledge.
Forced conversion is a political act to be ignored, downplayed, or simply denied by the religious officials much later.


In Christianity there a history of separating heretics from pagans: heretics deserve death, but pagans are left to the justice of god.

In Islam there is a history separating apostates from pagans: apostates deserve death, but pagans are left to the justice of god.

In Catholicism it is the Holy Spirit who is the cause of conversion or even of the difference between a faithful papist and an indifferent one.

As for Calvin...

aa5874

The Jesus cult suggested no such thing. In the Canon of the Jesus cult Jesus was God, the Creator of heaven and earth and was before anything was made.

The Sermon on the Mount is not attested by the other authors of the Jesus cult Canon.

In fact, in the earliest story of Jesus there is no claim that he told people to turn the other cheek.

After all, such a statement makes absolutely no sense. It is theological Mumbo-Jumbo.

If the Jews were to strike the "cheeks of the Romans" then immediately we see that "turning the other cheek" is just total nonsense--the Romans would have to turn their "cheeks" to the Jews.

The Sermon on the Mount appears to have been composed for propaganda and to keep the Jews under submission to the Romans.

Iskander

Hi aa5874,
Good catch! Yes, I forgot, but here it is:

Matthew 5:44 New International Version (©2011)
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 5:39 New International Version (©2011)
But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also

Luke 6:29 New International Version (©2011)
If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.

Luke 23:34 New International Version (©2011)
Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Chili

Billy Graham was an expert in forced conversion with his giant evangelistic rallies where 'forced entries' in the promised land was his aim. He knew exactly how this was done and so did all those [self proclaimed] Christians who were asked to bring a [not saved] suffering soul so that they will respond and go forward to receive.

This so was 'friend related' based on an element of trust and they would lead the invited guest to go forward so they might receive when the call from the altar was made. They were already 'saved' (one can only be born again once) and knew to remove the 'shame complex' of the invited guests against which Billy had been tugging during the rising action of this event.

Such a staged event is similar to parting the water (against reason) to 'drag' the invited guest forward and expose himself there in front of the crowd and make the confession they sought so they could 'zap' him right then and there.

This would be opposite to the 'thief in the night' conversion event that Catholics rely on in God's time so that no forced entry can ever be made.

Thief in the night here makes reference to the primary call that pertains to the naked animal man only, and that lies deeper than family and friends in response directly to God via Gabriel as first cause angel of God. This so is from beneath religion as well, and hence it can never be a religious event and most certainly not provoked by a giant 'staged' event purported only to penetrate the integrity of the suffering soul while he was waiting for God to do his own thing in him.

This now makes Billy's giant stage event a 'spiritual fornication orgy' wherein forced conversions are sought for the pleasure of all, and of course Catholics were his primary target as about the only virgins left to be done.

And yes, it is from under his own cross that he was snatched away by Billy & co while on the prawl.

Chili

. . . in fact, the whole Great Commission ordered by Matthew and Mark is driven by this same orgasmic moment wherein the kundalini is raised from the crotch to the heart to so arouse God's love in the believer, now a convert thus called into the new flock and will be counted as a credit to them in the sight of their God.

Menno Simon is one of those who would baptize them again now into their fold and will follow Catholic missions around the world where they prey on suffering souls to do them again so they may also be on fire for their Lord . . . except here now not in God's own time as per Songs 2:7, 3:5 that is repeated again in 9:4 as a no-no for sure.

Many televangelist will slime-ball Catholics to this same end and for political reason as well. It is funny to watch, actually, as America's most popular sport still today while those poor Catholics just haven't got a clue what this preaching is all about.

And you talk about 'forced' entry's here now?

And what did Jesus say to this? "Fear those who rob you of eternal life" maybe? and will hand you a scorpion instead?

Sick, sick, sick, would be my answer to this.

Chili

And I like Matthew's 10:41 on this where "he who welcomes a prophet in the name of a prophet has already received his reward" in the same way as "he who welcomes a holy man because he is known to be holy receives a holy man's reward," to say that this will only increase 'self righteousness' by that same degree, while even giving a cup of cold water without leaving your name on it is greater than any gift with righteous assurance in mind.

The Great Banquet of Luke is an elaboration of this and please note that in verse 24 "not one of those invited shall taste a morsel of my dinner."

This passage aligns perfectly well with Jn. 5:39-40 where he concludes that "[you] search the scriptures in which you think you have eternal life--they also testify on my behalf. Yet you are unwilling to come to me to get that life."

The bottom line here it that there was no historic Jesus if we must get this first-hand as the very words abiding in our heart (38).

This now puts tithing in trouble as well to never leave your name on the money we give, and not even for tax purpose at that.

And who cares anyway? if money is just a short form of gold to lead us on the way out where beauty is sought to decorate our chest in the complicated web that we weave.

This would be Plato's Labyrinth wherein we get lost in the end, as sinner for sure with no deeds of righteousness planted along the way that the ravens will have feasted away. Instead we need a life-line to get out, and for this the queen of angels is needed as She is the "River Merchant's Wife"* on the look-out for us, to say not only that we navigated our life-houseboat on her river-of-life, but also that She was in charge of the journey we made as per Gen.3:16 where She strikes at the lesser serpent in our own TOK where Eve/Magdalene presides as the temple-tramp in us, who in her turn strikes at our heel to move that life-house-boat down the river of life; Her river again as determinate creatures [we are] while obnoxiously beating our own chest as hero in charge of this passage in life that is driven by desire in our dream to live.

From the above it follows that She provided us with the primary premiss** of all our human endeavors that is charged with ambition in the joy of life as it is, wherein so now a vivid Eve is a blessing on the way out, while she must be put in park on the way back where the greater She must lead us back home as the very source of each and every primary we used on the way out.

This is where intuition first is the manger needed to convert Nietzsche's camel into a lion [instead of a dragon] of Rev.13:2, and from there She will lead us to the very place we first started our journey of life and there find our own self in the image we were created as God in our own right now fully as man under God.

Sorry about this ramble but I like the different poetic lines I used here to present the same thing, which above all does away with the historic Jesus for sure.

* This is from a Buddhist poem that is Catholic all the way.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/177163


** This is Aristotle [again] where intuition always provides the primary premiss of all human ambition.

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/a/aris...poa/book2.html

Iskander

I like your “ramble” chilli.

We have already discussed you poem in the Hindu/Buddha forum, you seem to have forgotten and that makes us very old friends.

* This is from a Buddhist poem that is Catholic all the way.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/177163



You explained the poem and I invited you to listen to a selection of Tosca –Malfitano, Domingo and Raimondi.


Religion is just a pastime for me.I hope it is nothing serious with you.

Chili

Hi Iskander, thank you.

I do not think that religion is serious for any Catholic who usually will believe anything you tell him for as long as you are talking to him. Now faith may be another thing but that has nothing to do with what you believe. Faith is more like an inner conviction and that comes with age, I suppose, where not religion but virtue counts for the most. Kind of like that karma thing for the Hindu's maybe.

Mind you, I was never a kid over here, but we used to go to church just so we could go drink beer afterwards, or at least sooner or later that day because that is what Sunday was all about. We had sport events with horses always and that is when the party started for us with a dance to follow later that day.

I clearly see a difference between Catholics and Christians and there is no way that Catholics can be fanatics as cold. It is just a tradition and that is all it is, something like Judaism, I suppose. So really, all that Constantine did was shut the lukewarm fanaticals down and put Matthew and Mark in the NT to identify who they were.

Nothing has changed, cold is still cold and lukewarm is not hot.

Iskander

Good, very good, I like any society which is blessed with a healthy tradition.