Originally Posted by spin

Spoken like a true peddler of junk pseudo-science. Solitary here has the air of a heretic pleading that his is the true religion.

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

No, dog-on, that's not a trajectory. Look harder.

Originally Posted by dog-on

Given, but as you referenced this particular post as your "trajectory", I figured that getting into semantics would simply cloud the issue.

So why not tell me specifically what your "trajectory" happens to be? Of course, since you seem to place an amount of weight behind it, relative to your position, you should be glad to help the rest of us get right.

Thanks, in advance.

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

The Gnostics in the strict sense viewed the flesh as evil. Likewise, they viewed the creator (the Jewish Scriptures God) as evil. If Christ were perfect, and if the flesh were evil, then Christ couldn't have come in the flesh.

We see this development:

a. Jesus b. Pillars group c. Paul group d. proto-Orthodox e. Orthodox
a. Jesus b. Pillars group c. Ebionites
a. Jesus b. Pillars group c. Paul group d. Gnostics e. Variety of Gnostic groups

The first line survived to this day, the second fell out rather early comparatively, and the last survives only in writings.

We can deconstruct it thusly:

What does the proto-Orthodox and the Gnostics share? They both share Paul. From Paul, they also share a more divine view of Jesus (as opposed to the mere human view of the Ebionites), they share the aversion to the flesh (Gnostics carry it further to the extreme). How do they differ? The proto-Orthodox revered the Jewish Scriptures, while the Gnostics struck it out.

What about the Paul group and the Ebionites? Well, since the Ebionites, without Paul, accepted the Jewish Scriptures, the Paul group in the first line accepted the Jewish Scriptures, two against one at the earliest level suggests that the Christians accepted the Jewish Scriptures.

So at the next level back we have Paul and the Ebionites both exaulting Christ, but the former in a more divine way, the latter in a more human way. They both accept the Jewish Scriptures.

Now, we don't have that many clues into the "Pillars" via the Ebionites, but we do from Paul. Paul claims that he, opposing himself to the Pillars, got his information about Jesus from a divine source, thus the Pillars got their source from a human source. The gospels make the claim that the Pillars in Paul were actually disciples, thus conforming to Paul's view that they received it from man. If Paul is to be trusted, then it's most likely that the Pillars were the disciples of Jesus. Subtracting Paul's views from his description of James and co. leaves us with a pretty neat direction - a view closer to the Ebionites.

Originally Posted by Solitary Man

That was the link I gave you.

Originally Posted by dog-on

Actually it lead me to a post by Johnny Sceptic, I somehow doubted that you wanted me to use his post as your trajectory..

Ok, I'll study it for a while and get back with any questions or concerns.

Thanks again.

Originally Posted by Mythra

Solitary Man - I see you use the term "trajectory" quite a bit, and it's not something that I've seen. Could I trouble you for a brief description of how this term is applied in a historical or theological context? (or if you have explained it elsewhere, a link would be fine)

Michael