Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stumpjumper · 03-30-2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxmann

Now I am not arguing either way on that issue, but it seems that you are doing what many atheists claim christians do: blindly following an authority figure and repeating what they have learned.

Yes. But you see there is no fallacious reasoning going on if the person tells you that a religious figure never existed. It's not quite a double standard. But it's close...

Silly

Neutral · 03-30-2006, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by singletrack1

Regarding Moses and Jesus I agree with you but you got it wrong regarding Muhamed.

:rolling:

It's always fun posting here....

There's bound to be a thread that it'll crack you up. Yeah, Moses and Jesus were definitely mythical (no citations of course) but Muhamed (we will spell his name however we damn please

) of course was non-existant...

MMM. kay...

Regarding the existence of Moses and Jesus, I agree with the op so I don’t have to discuss it but if you have evidence of their existence stop cracking up and show it to us.

Regarding the existence of Muhamed I provided the reason why I believe he really existed and you have the full right to refute my claim and his existence by the way is some thing different from whether his religion is right or wrong.

Neutral · 03-30-2006, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

The Hadiths are the most unreliable of all the writings. They have already been shown to have been forged throughout history by many different people.

If you read my post carefully you will find this

Quote:

And after each Hadith you will find an estimate of reliability of this particular Hadith ranging from “ Motawater”,correct, good,singular, weak and fake.

Forged hadith were known to Muslim scholars and this is why they insisted on providing the “Isnad” before each Hadith to verify its authenticity.

Answerer · 03-30-2006, 10:19 PM

Isn't Mohammend tomb said to be lying in the holy city of Mecca? I don't think anyone dare to open his tomb but its there as part of the holy Pilgrimage.

Malachi151 · 03-31-2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxmann

So if I understand you correctly, you went to hear this scholar, who told you that Muhammad never existed or at least the evidence is strong in favor of that. Now I am not arguing either way on that issue, but it seems that you are doing what many atheists claim christians do: blindly following an authority figure and repeating what they have learned. I am sure you are more learned than that(which you mention previous understanding of religions in general), but it just goes to show that this "blindly following" is certainly alive and well in both camps. Here is something you heard last night and you are already claiming that he doesn't exist, without further study first. Also, wikipedia, may be a great place to start, but please don't stay there too long.

No, the scholar, Ibn Warraq, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Warraq) was discussing the history of Islam and how the Quran was developed. Based on this, I asked whether or not Muhammad even existed, since the development of the Quran actually makes more sense if there was no single origional author.

To this he replied that that is one of the major areas os study of current (skeptical) Islamic scholars, and so far there is not any evidence that he did exist and there are a lot of things that are best explained by his non-existance. The story of his life is, like Jesus, a "hero story", that fits typical fictional hero pattern that were common among Jews and Greeks of the period and parellels the story of Moses.

I also find it funny how both "Jesus" and "Muhammad" were supposedly illiterate. This is a convenient excuse for why they left no personal trace of themselves.

There is no tomb of Muhammad, tha's just nonsense, it would be impossible for there to be a tomb of Muhammad because no one knew of his whereabouts for the first 200 or 300 years, his current "tomb" has just been made up after the fact. In fact, from what I understand, there are multiple locations that are claimed to be his "real resting place".

See also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_f...rical_Muhammed

Chris Weimer · 04-01-2006, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

No, I just began learing about this specifically last night, but based on what I know about religions in general this makes complete sense.

Here the first alarm goes off. In most historical studies, such a simple "making sense" is very uncommon. Go research the Synoptic Problem, or the origins of Hebrew monotheism, or the situation regarding the end of the Republic, or the sequence leading up to World War II. Simplistic reasoning is more often than not just wrong. It's usually a sign of an agenda or propaganda. Now I note that Muhammed may very well not have existed, but to declare "it just makes sense" is actually counter-convincing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I also find it funny how both "Jesus" and "Muhammad" were supposedly illiterate. This is a convenient excuse for why they left no personal trace of themselves.

Or Socrates? Yet Socrates is mentioned by not only two disciples, but a contemporaneous adversary. And no, Jesus was not supposed to be illiterate. According to Luke, he read from the Torah in the synagogue - that's definitely a sign of literacy.

River · 04-01-2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

Ibn Warraq, an ex-Muslim scholar of Islam.

Ibn Warraq...lol....

I bet Abdul Rahman will be considered a scholar once he writes his book from Italy......

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03-30-2006, 10:19 PM	#14
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	Isn't Mohammend tomb said to be lying in the holy city of Mecca? I don't think anyone dare to open his tomb but its there as part of the holy Pilgrimage.

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