starling

Two words: ninety virgins.

I think the whole point of Heaven is you get all that stuff you wanted when you were alive but couldn't have. So stop whining that your feudal leaders are starving you and overworking you, be a good little peasant and you'll get it all back after it's too late to bring them to account for it.

French Prometheus

The Jesus of the Bible is schizophrenic. You can focus on the "good" sayings and explain the rest away. But you can also do the opposite. The point is, your moderate and liberal interpretation of the Bible is no more convincing than the harsh kill-em-all-for-God-knows-they-who-are-his interpretation of some fundamentalists.
Luke 19:27
Mat. 10:34
Luke 12:47
and others...
That makes the Bible a poor example of "revelation". We mere mortals are left to guess which interpretation is the correct one. And depending on which one you pick, you'll feel compel to "save" others even if they're unwilling.
Most inquisitors regarded autodafes as acts of mercy. They tried to cleanse heretics' evil souls to give them a chance to repent and be forgiven (and avoid ending up in hell).

Mageth

This is a discussion board (and a forum dedicated to "General Religious Discussions), you did indicate you were interested in civil discussion, you posted the statements as part of a discussion, and I enjoy discussing many subjects, including general religious subjects. One part of discussion is, well, seeking reconciliation of statements of your "opponent" that seem contradictory.

I understand that your beliefs work for you. Of course they do, or you would, I presume, abandon them. I don't deny that Christian beliefs work for many people (note that "Christian beliefs" encompasses a wide range of beliefs).

And I understand that you don't "feel" cognitive dissonance. However, several of your statements in this thread have strongly suggested the possibility of cognitive dissonance, such as your statements about the conflict between the "wrathful" God and the "infinitely loving" God and the conflict between Jesus' teachings and Paul's teachings, and statements like the one below:

Your apparent recognition of these conflicts indicates that you struggle over the seemingly conflicting concepts that are apparent in the very scriptures on which you base your faith and beliefs. And that’s wonderful; I feel one should recognize such conflicts and struggle over them. I actually appreciate your position; as I stated, I was not that long ago in a very similar position; I finally recognized the cognitive dissonance that Christian beliefs, including “faith�, and scriptures were causing for me. Thus, I recognize the possibility that Christian beliefs may cause cognitive dissonance for others.

It seems to me that many people avoid the problem of cognitive dissonance by resorting to “faith�. They have faith, for example, that God is infinitely loving, and will be infinitely fair. Perhaps that’s the difference; faith lost its hold on me. Once I stepped back from faith and started examining Christian beliefs from the outside, the whole house of cards came tumbling down.

I find reason much more satisfying and reliable.

You need to think seriously about your question. By all indications, you are a bright and reasonable person. I hope that you recognize that questioning your own beliefs, even your belief in faith, is a good thing. But then, do your beliefs include a belief that one shouldn’t question one’s faith, particularly one’s faith in God? I hope that they do not.

Actually, I surmise that you do question your beliefs; your statements on this thread are an indication that you do.

That hardly answers my question: what does “infinitely fair� mean? And how could the judgment be “infinitely fair� if it’s entirely one-sided? True fairness implies two parties in cooperation, some kind of give-and-take. There needs to be two parties reaching some kind of mutual agreement to have true fairness.

You could resort, of course, to the sovereignty of God. But then judgment becomes simply some kind of King vs. Serf relationship. Is it fair to the serf if the King throws him in the dungeon for failing to bow when the King walks by? From the King’s perspective, by the Kingdom’s law, I’m sure it’s fair. The loyal members of the King’s court would call it fair. But it’s really just an exhibition of power. Might makes Right, or in this case Might makes Fair.

BTW, I do not “choose not to have faith in God�. I lack belief in God, so I can hardly choose to have or not have faith in him. Nor can I simply believe in God through faith, any more than I can believe in Santa Claus through faith.

Mageth

Well, there's a prime example of Biblical, Godly fairness.

French Prometheus

I edited my post in the meantime but you're right, I should have left this example. Now, it's preserved in your post.

miata

"Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich."
-- Napolean Bonaparte "What is history but a fable agreed upon."

"What is history but a fable agreed upon."
-- Napolean Bonaparte (1769-1821), French general, Napoleon I of France

I want people to find peace in religion; I am afraid of extremist and I hope politics and religion will fall out of love. I don't like for political figures to say God told me to attack; after all Hitler claimed to be doing God's will. I don't know which God he was talking to.

I had rather my neighbors be Christians than Satanic Cultist, but that's just me. The Christians are trying to assume a moral role in society and most are kind to me and we do not discuss religion; not much point in it. People are often motivated more by fear than greed and the fear of eternal damnation is a strong motivator. When I felt sure in my mind there was no supernatural powers and that I was alone in the universe I was a little afraid. OK a lot afraid. In time I felt liberated as I felt I could be a moral person because I care about people and not that I was going to HELL. My parents were really big on religion and were very cruel and abusive, so I did not have very good role models in the dept. of faith. They reminded me often i was not planned or needed, I was a pretty good outlet for their anger and got punished at times for thing I did not do; they were beating that devil out of my black soul. They were good at church and mean as hell outside church doors. I could not wait to be free of them and I still keep a safe distance from them. I do not blame all Christians for their failures but I do not want to be a Christian, I do not believe in anything. I have no Idea why we live or die but it seems like a very sick and cruel joke to let it make us hide from that reality.

My Jack Russell does not seem to be concerned about the future and I envy that freedom. Imagine a human being would envy a dog but she is treated better by this atheist than I was treated as a child by good Christian parents.

I try to find the good in all people and not paint religious people with the same brush. I treat them as I want them to treat me and I don't care what people believe as long as it does not hurt others. People worshiped the sun in primitive times and if I was religious the sun seems as good as any.

I do enjoy the debate here and I hope we learn from each other but I don't think any minds are going to change. I respect all of your views and I am glad you have not asked me to leave yet, as 2 religious sites have asked me to get lost. They did not appreciate my lack of belief in God so I will not debate as I don't know who has it right and I don't think I will in this life. If God knew me before I was born and let it happen anyway I assume he will tolerate me a few more days prior to my billions and billions of years in hell. I must be pretty bad to deserve that fate.

Thanks for letting me share, but I promise to listen more than I talk.

French Prometheus

That's not the most intelligent thing he said... That's the reason why he cut a deal with the Pope (who was less than keen on him)

Faith

I don't advocate picking and choosing which verses to believe. And I don't see the schizophrenic Jesus you speak of. He spoke in parables and hyperbole to illustrate the harsh truth: sin is deadly serious and a threat to one's well-being. A person can be made right through faith. A heart full of selfishness and pride will reject God, and His message will divide families in this life and in the afterlife.

I do feel compelled to share the Gospel message. I do not feel compelled to try and "save" the unwilling.

miata

I have read the entire book of Leviticus several times, I wonder if people are held to those rules today. I will not pick verses as the who book is confusing to me.

dado

don't worry about it. it is a book by Jews, for Jews, describing one group's attempt to construct a moral society. while i do believe there are universal lessons in there, there is no reason to expect the specifics to apply to all peoples.