fast

This makes sense, or at least it can help explain some of the wording. I just can't imagine people thinking God committed suicide with wording like that in John 3:16

Maybe it’s saying that Jesus had both a divine nature and a human nature, and when they are referred to them both (yet as one), then maybe they are talking about Jesus’s divine nature, and when it talks about giving the world his son, they are talking about the human nature. This is all messed up.

At any rate, all my questions stem from the fact that my dad (a Christian—yet questions it all) can’t seem to understand how a powerful God can actually let his Son get killed like that. His preacher explains that God loved the world so much that he was willing to give his only son…imagine the love that would take—bla bla.

PS: I know I haven't responded to everyone, but I do thank you for your responses.

mdarus

"Suicide" is not the usual word to describe this but it is close. Jesus willingly allowed himself to be crucified and did not die until he released his own spirit. There is a sense where he was in control, not merely a victim. This may be a difficult concept because we sometimes identify suicide as giving up on life which is not the concept here. You seem to understand the enormity of the concept better than most (me included).

You have a good grasp of the issues that have been debated over the centuries and the difficult of a complete understanding.
Your father's instincts are good on this. A father is expected to defend his son. For the Father to allow the Son to permit this was in a sense a violation of this principle. Our understanding requires a sufficient over-riding reason.

fast

mdarus,

Thank you for your kind post.

Just for clarification, I didn't mean to suggest that Jesus committed suicide. It's hard to explain. If it's the case that Jesus is God, then God gave his own life. If it's the case that Jesus is not God, then God did not give his own life but instead the life of another--or so it seems.

If we are to look at God's actions as positive, then it's easier to do so if they are one, but if they are not one, then it seems a little less positive.

I'm thinking that it's intended to be conveyed as there are two entities, so while I'm battling those that say there's only one, I'm also trying to find a way to positively view the case that seems less positive.

However, if it's the case that Jesus is supernatural too, then how much of a sacrifice was it? It's like saying I'll give up and sacrifice my only beloved son for you, but it's not much of a sacrifice if he's not human. This brings me back to the aspect that perhaps it's viewed that the human aspect of Jesus was sacrificed which gives rise to the notion there was a real sacrifice, but then this brings us back to a father giving up his only son, but not really because he knows Jesus has a supernatural side too.

I don't have the answers. Besides, I didn't even set out to answer a two thousand year old mystery as to his real nature. That's too advanced for me. I was just trying to count them to see how many there were. I've thought all these years that the belief was two, but with all this talk about one, it gave rise to the notion that the sacrifice wasn't bad, but then again there’s the implications about how much of a sacrifice was it. Sorry for rambling--just going in circles.

Tigers!

As a theist I'll throw in my 2 bob's worth.
Ziffel view is very good. God is composed of 3 persons Father, Son, Spirit. One yet three.
The three are distinct in roles, responsibilities etc: yet are one in will and essence.
Greater minds than mine have tried to grapple with this and been found wanting in formulating a complete answer.
If Paul, Augustine, Aquinas. Luther, Calvin etc: found it hard then I'm not going to suggest any new insights

fast

You're not making this easier


:angel:

mdarus

Christian theology states that Jesus is fully God and fully man - God incarnate. Even without emphasis of the humanity of Jesus, you can have a very meaningful sacrifice with the concept of Jesus being truly God. The amazing part is where Jesus says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus, as a part of the triune God feels a separation. Assuming God as a single essence, and Jesus, the Son as part of that essence, God is separated from Himself. This may be the closest to a theory of God feeling his own pain. These thoughts seem consistent with Scripture and are commonly taught or preached, however they are not clearly revealed in Scripture.

Doug Shaver

Christians find support for the trinity in several places. The set of proof texts offered varies from one apologist to another, but this is fairly typical: http://www.montney.com/inspire/trinity.htm

Tigers!

Could always try the slightly irreverent paraphrase of Jn 3:16

"For God so loved the world he didn't sent a committee"

IonMic

The trinity is clearly 3 separate entities how can people not grasp such simple things?


the keyword here is begotten.
begotten = (of offspring) generated by procreation;

This clearly states Jesus was of Gods offspring and was no more God than I am my Father.

Me and my basketball team are one too does this make us one person? we share the same goal and as a team have the same purpose and are each trying to achieve the same thing together therefore we are 'one' of purpose. this clearly has no bearing on god and jesus being a single entity.

let me spell this one out.

In the beginning was jesus, and jesus was with Heavenly father, and Jesus was like a god.

to me it seems simple logic but if jesus was a physical entity right now he would clearly be separate from god in heaven as we could only presume that if jesus is in heaven in a physical body then surely God can be in heaven in a physical body also??? if you disagree then where does jesuses body go when he ascends to heaven in front of his apostles?

fast

Though I've heard of the word 'trinity' and though it comprises 'tri', I have not been exposed to the term that much nor did I realize that it was relevant to my question. I appreciate your clarification.

As for not grasping such simple things, I think it has a little to do with not being able to reconcile various accounts of purported claims of truth, but then again, I'm only speculating.

Yes, this is why I was questioning the claims that suggest they are the same entity.

Great, now this makes two entities. Who is the third?

Good point.

Please elaborate. Are you saying that 'Heavenly father' is the third entity?

ENTITY 1: God, the father of Jesus, our heavenly father [in spirit form]
ENTITY 2: Jesus, the son of God, our Lord and savior [in human form]
ENTITY 3: ???

Do I have entity 1 and 2 correct? Or is Jesus our heavenly father to which God is his heavenly father? I'm supposing 'the spirit' is the form of God.

How do Christians believe that adhere to the King James Bible? Do not include considerations of how Catholics or Jehovah witnesses believe despite that they are subsets of Christianity.