Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 08-15-2007, 01:51 AM

Jocelyn Godwin turns out to be trained as a musicologist (although listed as a "Historian of the esoteric") and his Mystery Religions in the Ancient World (or via: amazon.co.uk) gets two stars from Amazon.

Ray Moscow · 08-15-2007, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Jocelyn Godwin turns out to be trained as a musicologist (although listed as a "Historian of the esoteric") and his Mystery Religions in the Ancient World (or via: amazon.co.uk) gets two stars from Amazon.

I suppose this esoteric stuff is largely left to be presented by non-specialists, perhaps because serious academics probably prefer to spend their careers on more mainstream pursuits.

To mention two who have stirred up a lot of debate: Freke read philosophy in university, and Gandy classics. Neither are trained biblical scholars (and sometimes this shows). Still, I really appreciate the work they have done to dig up and present some very interesting and important material that was largely unknown to the public.

The 2 stars was a reader's review, BTW.

Ray

Roger Pearse · 08-15-2007, 09:46 AM

Larger image

Ray Moscow · 08-15-2007, 10:16 AM

Thanks for tracking this down and posting it, Roger.

andrewcriddle · 08-15-2007, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

I'm in Cambridge University Library. The relevant volume of Revue Archeologique isn't on the shelf (<&^%$#!> -- I hope it isn't a reader of this thread that has removed it!), but I have got a photocopy of the Mingana manuscript catalogue which I will upload here this evening. It doesn't give us much, tho.

Sorry I've got it out.

I tracked the article down via a posthumously published article by Cumont in the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies edited by Hinnells.

Andrew Criddle

Roger Pearse · 08-15-2007, 11:38 AM

Transliterating the Syriac we get:

Mention also is made of the god bnd’ritos, who was worshipped until the arrival of Christ.

On folio 59a it is said that Zoroaster (zrdšh plus a seyame -- why is this plural?) said to his disciple, "Anyone who does not eat my body and drink my blood and mix with me and I with him, will have no salvation."

Perhaps Cumont refers to "le Zardusht"? If so perhaps either Vermaseren or his English translators understood as "the Zardusht" instead of "Zoroaster", and hence we get the bogus reference to the Zardusht-namah in the English version of Vermaseren.

Clivedurdle · 08-15-2007, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjramsey

Are we talking Mithras, the Roman god of a mystery religion, or the Iranian god Mithras?

There seem to be not two but three stops for this train. Persia and Iran (Mitra), Anatolia and Greece (Mithra) and Rome and its empire (Mithras). How much mystery religion there was in Iran is difficult to know: at least one cave temple I know about has been found in Iran.

The Iranian god has had many faces in its Iranian history from Indian-Iranian times when Mitra was one of the principal gods with Varuna (even known in the Mittanian treaty with the Hittites), to son of the one god, Ahura Mazda (title for a god whose name in India was Varuna and Greece, Uranus, but never named in Iran), under the machinations of Zarathustra, though his efforts were functionally rejected during the Hasmonean era and Mitra reappeared as a god in his own right, on to Anatolia where he went through local changes -- gained the Phrygian cap for example -- and finally Rome. But when he became a saviour god as we know him through the Mithraea of the Roman Empire is not easy to pin down.

spin

Isn't the debate that the final stop for this train is xianity?

Roger Pearse · 08-15-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

There seem to be not two but three stops for this train. Persia and Iran (Mitra), Anatolia and Greece (Mithra) and Rome and its empire (Mithras). How much mystery religion there was in Iran is difficult to know: at least one cave temple I know about has been found in Iran.

The Iranian god has had many faces in its Iranian history from Indian-Iranian times when Mitra was one of the principal gods with Varuna (even known in the Mittanian treaty with the Hittites), to son of the one god, Ahura Mazda (title for a god whose name in India was Varuna and Greece, Uranus, but never named in Iran), under the machinations of Zarathustra, though his efforts were functionally rejected during the Hasmonean era and Mitra reappeared as a god in his own right, on to Anatolia where he went through local changes -- gained the Phrygian cap for example -- and finally Rome. But when he became a saviour god as we know him through the Mithraea of the Roman Empire is not easy to pin down.

spin

Isn't the debate that the final stop for this train is xianity?

This account of the origins of the Roman cult of Mithras does not seem to be acceptable to scholars today, tho; the archaeology is against it, or so I am told.

The Roman cult has no connection as far as I know (other than a similar-sounding name) to the various Persian cults (about which no-one ever seems to know anything concrete).

There are none of the characteristic Mithraea in Iran as far as I know.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Roger Pearse · 08-15-2007, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Moscow

Thanks for tracking this down and posting it, Roger.

Thank you -- you're welcome.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto · 08-15-2007, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Transliterating the Syriac we get:
[indent]
Mention also is made of the god bnd’ritos, who was worshipped until the arrival of Christ.

....

Which god would this be?

08-15-2007, 11:38 AM	#46
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Transliterating the Syriac we get: Mention also is made of the god bnd’ritos, who was worshipped until the arrival of Christ. On folio 59a it is said that Zoroaster (zrdšh plus a seyame -- why is this plural?) said to his disciple, "Anyone who does not eat my body and drink my blood and mix with me and I with him, will have no salvation." Perhaps Cumont refers to "le Zardusht"? If so perhaps either Vermaseren or his English translators understood as "the Zardusht" instead of "Zoroaster", and hence we get the bogus reference to the Zardusht-namah in the English version of Vermaseren.

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08-15-2007, 01:51 AM	#41
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Jocelyn Godwin turns out to be trained as a musicologist (although listed as a "Historian of the esoteric") and his Mystery Religions in the Ancient World (or via: amazon.co.uk) gets two stars from Amazon.

08-15-2007, 09:46 AM	#43
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Larger image

08-15-2007, 10:16 AM	#44
Ray Moscow Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Surrey, England Posts: 1,255	Thanks for tracking this down and posting it, Roger.

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