Chris Weimer

Except not. What about Paul? Where do you think the gospels came from? They don't just pop out of thin air.

Not until the very end of the first century do Jesus' life or teachings become both well-known and authoritative per the gospels.

Did you forget that extra-canonical works exist?

Ted Hoffman

Have you read Doherty's recent work on Christianity and Mystery religions? he addresses all your concerns therein. See the articles in his website.

Solo

Further, the only other mythic hero (known to me) who was executed "under law", was an 18th century Slovak robber of the rich, Juro Janosik. He died in 1712. Would there be an example in antiquity of a myth in which the protagonist would be subject to and made to suffer by legal implements ?

Jiri

Solo

I agree very much with 'the devil is in the details', Ben, and overall I do not see Price committing himself too far. He sets up Bultmann's view(Jesus myth rising early as a community property) as his own fallback position.

But tell me then, which parts of the texts do you see pointing 'in the opposite direction' ?

Perhaps you could clarify what you mean by 'opposite direction', first. I take it would not be what appears to be synthetic creativity from within the Christian movement itself, i.e. I venture that you do not believe there was a Sermon on the Mount delivered by Jesus to a real multitude in historical time and space. (Perhaps, when Price said virtually he meant to point to the mythologizing from within, or folkloric traditions).

So what then would, in your estimate, represent text elements pointing (at least as strongly as the literary borrowings do to a species of MJ) to a historical personage ? IOW, will you let us see some of the devil in your own theory, Ben ?

Jiri

Ben C Smith

Mind you, I am giving this only as an example. I do not want to debate it right now (I opened up a thread some time ago to discuss it and had some fruitful exchanges about it).

Simon of Cyrene is an example. At a point where literary (especially OT) parallels falter momentarily we get this reference from Mark to Simon of Cyrene bearing the cross of Jesus, and to his two sons, Alexander and Rufus.

I think that (at least) those portions of the passion narrative that put Roman officials, Jewish officials, and Roman soldiers to work fulfilling ancient prophecies are probably invented on the basis of those ancient prophecies. Why? Because that looks like the natural conclusion. But, in the case of Simon of Cyrene, I think that the Marcan readership knew who Alexander and Rufus were and that Mark dropped this tidbit in because he knew who their father was and what he had done. I think that Simon really existed and really bore the cross for Jesus. Why? Because that, despite the fact that other explanations might be offered, looks like the natural conclusion.

Ben.

aa5874

The words virtually every story may also imply that Price do not know of any stories or parts thereof that fail the test.

And Price did not focus on the legendary parts alone, he wrote..."virtually every story in the gospels and Acts....."

There is virtually nothing in the opposite direction.

PhilosopherJay

Hi Ben,

But even if we assume that Mark knew that his audience was familiar with Simon of Cyrene, how can we tell if he was refering to a fictional or historical person?

For example, let us say you read in my new novel about how Lazlo Kovacs picked up the cross of my hero Willy Wonderful. Now, to you, the name may have no particular significance, but sounds like an authentic name, so you may assume that it is the name of someone I actually knew. Or you may think that the name sounds absurd and could not possibly be a real person.

If you're a film buff, you may recognize the name as belonging to the cinematographer of films like "Easy Rider" and "My Best Friend's Wedding". Or you may be into European politics and recognize the name as the recent head of the Hungarian Socialist Party and European Union Commissioner. On the other hand, I may have had in mind, not a real person, but the alias that Jean Paul Belmondo's character Michel uses in Godard's 1960 classic film "Breathless." But in that film the name was used to refer to the character Jean Paul Belmondo played in the 1959 Claude Chambrol movie "A Double Tour" which was based on the 1953 novel by American mystery writer Stanley Ellis called "The Key to Nicolas Street." Does the name there derive from the fictional character Victor Lazlo, the resistance fighter from the movie "Casablanca?" And was Victor Lazlo based on the real Hungarian Communist leader László Rajk?

So, it is quite difficult to know if a name refers to an actual person or a fictional character without being privy to the author's circle of friends or additional information from the author.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Ben C Smith

Thanks, Jay. I must, however, stick to my guns here, as I do not have the time to go into it right now:

Ben.

gstafleu

[QUOTE=Ben C Smith;4518199]There is probably a fancy name for this fallacy, but let me try it with an analogy. You need butter, flower and sugar to make a cake. That doesn't mean that the sugar doesn't lead you anywhere that the butter and flower were already leading you.

If a person confirms to the MHA, a red flag is raised. But it is not enough to come to the conclusion "mythical." After all, MHA elements can be applied to a real person like Augustus. However, if there are no "historic footprints" of the person in question, then a second red flag is raised. It is the combination of the two flags that leads to the conclusion "most likely mythical." Both flags contribute to this conclusion, you cannot ignore one in favor of the other.

Gerard

S.C.Carlson

That could well be the case. I suppose my own idea of an MJer is heavily influenced by reading G. A. Wells in the 80s.

Stephen