Gamera

Modern secularism based on reason would be impossible had not Christianity ended the ethical nihilism of classic paganism.

fatpie42

Does something become more reasonable because lots of people do it? Lots of people believe in God.

Oh and Gamera isn't immune to this criticism either. He doesn't think sacrifices are terribly sensible, but they were practised for centuries by Jew and Pagan alike.

What about those suffering from psychopathy who don't have the ability to empathise with others and thus don't understand why to be 'good' to others unless there is a risk of punishment if they are not. Where's their in-built moral sense?

fatpie42

Was Socrates an ethical nihilist? Were the Ancient Greeks ethical nihilists?

This is classic BS you are spouting.

Diogenes the Cynic

There was nothing truly original in Christian ethical teachings.
This is false in several ways. First, Christianity was never egalitarian. Second, egalitarian ethics preceded Christianity third, the founders of modern (i.e. American) democracy were decidely NOT egalitarian and fourth, they did not base their system on Christianity. Most of them were not even Christians themselves.
That's not a misconception. It permeates both the Hebrew Bible and the Christian new Testament
It happened through secular democracy, through separation of church and state, and through a system which allowed disenfranchised demographics to fight for equal rights.

Amaleq13

This is incomprehensible gibberish that continues to miss the point. Moral codes that can be derived by reason from the stated goal of social order cannot be said to owe anything to moral codes deriving from superstitious beliegs even if those superstitious beliefs derived those very same codes centuries earlier.

Diogenes the Cynic

There was no ethical nihilism in classical philosophic traditions, nor was there any such thing in Judaism or in Buddhism or any number of other cultural and religious systems.

Amaleq13

No, I understand the point and I consider it false. Moral codes that can be derived by reason applied to the stated goal are in no way dependent upon any earlier codes that also contained them.

fatpie42

The bit in bold I accept. However, the account described in italics seems too simplistic to me. Okay so you've mentioned a stated goal of social order, but what if someone is actually able to profit better from a state of war and chaos? It's this idea that morality is entirely derived from reason that bugs me.

I am not saying that our current morality 'owes' the preceding morality anything. I'm not even sure what that would mean. What I am saying is that many of the common moral ideas in society are derived from the old ones, but there's nothing particularly wrong with that. As has been said before, many different cultures have pretty similar rules in cultures completely independent from Christianity.

What has to be recognised though, is that the first secular thinkers didn't sit down and go "what values and moral rules should I affirm now that I have completely ditched the old Christian ones". The only thinker to attempt such a thing was Friedrich Nietzsche and the job was far from completed when he died. (It might be argued that Kant and Bentham were attempting it, but it always seems more like they are finding excuses to keep most of the old moral rules rather than radically de-Christianising morality.)

Amaleq13

This is just more self-serving nonsense. As fatpie42 has pointed out, rational thought in no way depends upon the elimination of "the ethical nihilism of classic paganism".

fatpie42

Er... I'm not sure what you are attributing to me now. Who is to say that ethical nihilism is 'irrational'? Nevertheless I would note that there were many people in the period before Jesus' arrival who were far from ethical nihilists. The main people who Jesus criticised, in fact, were Pharisees who valued moral action very highly.