Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SkepticBoyLee · 03-14-2005, 07:39 PM

Free will is no excuse as to how imperfection comes from perfection.

If God created us perfectly we would never screw up even when given free will. We would always make the PERFECT decision because our design would be perfect. The only remedy seems to be that we were NOT created perfectly. But then where is the free will? It all seems rigged. If we were created flawed then the nature of our mistakes would already be determined by our particular design flaws.

Godless Wonder · 03-14-2005, 07:45 PM

How can free will exist under any system at all? The concept of free will is incoherent, and there is no experiment which you can perform which will have recognizably different outcomes depending on whether this free will actually exists or not.

sharon45 · 03-14-2005, 07:57 PM

People have a very limited degree of will to make and carry out choices in life while many others have far less than that to almost none at all. The idea of true free will is absurd.

SkepticBoyLee · 03-14-2005, 08:01 PM

I think that some quantum theory and chaos theory may make some room for free will in reality but thats not my question.

Often its asked "How can imperfection come form perfection (us from God)".

The religionists excuse is "Free Will. He gave it to you and you chose to fuck up". Thats when my point about deisgn flaws comes in. A creature created prefectly would never screw up even if given free will.

Columbus · 03-14-2005, 08:18 PM

The basic explanation for the existence of free will is that people will sometimes make decisions that are not in their best interests for no apparent reason. This is totally illogical. But you can't explain an omni-max divine entity and also the existence of evil without it. So religious people assert the existence of free will without explaining why. They prefer a totally illogical explanation over one that will require them to change their beliefs. It's the downside of Faith.
They prefer to believe in an omni-max entity because it gives them comfort and certainty. They also prefer to believe in the parts of reality that are painful. So they create the "free will" explanation, because it's easier to ignore the contradictions of free will than the contradictions of christian or muslim theology. It is easier for someone who has built up an identity around Salvation through Faith to ignore the contradictions of Free Will than to evaluate the claims of Abrahamic Theology. So they believe things like what that guy trying to sell us his "top 100 Christian forums" said: You people must want to burn in hell".
Some things are not really all that hard to figure out.

Tom

sharon45 · 03-14-2005, 09:26 PM

God already admits to creating evil, he shows himself as to making mistakes and lying, so he is not a perfect being right from the start. Making this world, which is far from perfect, is consistent enough with the OT god's 'MO'.

There is nothing so much wrong with something perfect or not so perfect creating something imperfect, just what exactly is created and how this is handled afterward is where the problem resides.

parkdalian · 03-15-2005, 02:18 AM

Christians are attempting to relieve their God of the charge of being the sole perpetrator of all evil, by getting him off on the lesser charge of criminal negligence causing mass death.

03-14-2005, 07:39 PM	#1
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	How can free will POSSIBLY exist in Christianity (and Islam)?? Free will is no excuse as to how imperfection comes from perfection. If God created us perfectly we would never screw up even when given free will. We would always make the PERFECT decision because our design would be perfect. The only remedy seems to be that we were NOT created perfectly. But then where is the free will? It all seems rigged. If we were created flawed then the nature of our mistakes would already be determined by our particular design flaws.

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03-14-2005, 07:45 PM	#2
Godless Wonder Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,197	How can free will exist under any system at all? The concept of free will is incoherent, and there is no experiment which you can perform which will have recognizably different outcomes depending on whether this free will actually exists or not.

03-14-2005, 07:57 PM	#3
sharon45 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Southwest, US Posts: 8,759	People have a very limited degree of will to make and carry out choices in life while many others have far less than that to almost none at all. The idea of true free will is absurd.

03-14-2005, 08:01 PM	#4
SkepticBoyLee Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 759	I think that some quantum theory and chaos theory may make some room for free will in reality but thats not my question. Often its asked "How can imperfection come form perfection (us from God)". The religionists excuse is "Free Will. He gave it to you and you chose to fuck up". Thats when my point about deisgn flaws comes in. A creature created prefectly would never screw up even if given free will.

03-14-2005, 08:18 PM	#5
Columbus Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: midwestern America Posts: 935	The basic explanation for the existence of free will is that people will sometimes make decisions that are not in their best interests for no apparent reason. This is totally illogical. But you can't explain an omni-max divine entity and also the existence of evil without it. So religious people assert the existence of free will without explaining why. They prefer a totally illogical explanation over one that will require them to change their beliefs. It's the downside of Faith. They prefer to believe in an omni-max entity because it gives them comfort and certainty. They also prefer to believe in the parts of reality that are painful. So they create the "free will" explanation, because it's easier to ignore the contradictions of free will than the contradictions of christian or muslim theology. It is easier for someone who has built up an identity around Salvation through Faith to ignore the contradictions of Free Will than to evaluate the claims of Abrahamic Theology. So they believe things like what that guy trying to sell us his "top 100 Christian forums" said: You people must want to burn in hell". Some things are not really all that hard to figure out. Tom

03-14-2005, 09:26 PM	#6
sharon45 Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Southwest, US Posts: 8,759	God already admits to creating evil, he shows himself as to making mistakes and lying, so he is not a perfect being right from the start. Making this world, which is far from perfect, is consistent enough with the OT god's 'MO'. There is nothing so much wrong with something perfect or not so perfect creating something imperfect, just what exactly is created and how this is handled afterward is where the problem resides.

03-15-2005, 02:18 AM	#7
parkdalian Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Nouveau-Brunswick Posts: 507	Christians are attempting to relieve their God of the charge of being the sole perpetrator of all evil, by getting him off on the lesser charge of criminal negligence causing mass death.

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