Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sauron · 11-11-2005, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

cont.....atrribution #1 of analysis 1 : Quote Ezekiel, the great prophet of the babylonian exile whose dated prophecies range fromabout 593-571 B.C. Ezekiel was taken captive in the first deportation from Jerusalem in 597 B.C. He was a member of a community of Hebrew exiles who settled on the banks of the chebar, a river of Babylon. It was this river in the land of the Chaldeans that he received his call to prophetic office, in the fourth month of the "fifth year of KIng Joachims captivity. He (Ezekeil) was married and had a house in his place of exile; he lost his wife by a sudden and unforeseen stroke on the very day that the siege of Jerusalem began. The last date mentioned in his prophecy is the twentry-seventh year of the captivity, so it is certain that his ministry lasted over twenty years. Tradition asserts he was murdered in Babylon by some Hebrew prince whom he haD CONVICTED OF IDOLOATRY, and was buried on the banks of the Euphrates. The Layman's Bible Encyclopedia edt William C. Martin ;Ezekiel: Dr. William Pasan (1964) to be cont.......

None of which proves the specific claims you made.

Do you not understand that legendary background (some of it mythical) about Ezekiel does not prove the very detailed claims you made about his relationship with the Babylonian court?

mata leao · 11-11-2005, 06:38 PM

cont....attribution #1 of analysis 1 Quote" Generally, captives who had special skills faired better under the quasi-feudal captivity of the Babylonians, who required payment of taxation to the royal treasury in goods and labor. Captive jews worked as laborers, artisans, scribes, and domestic servants. Many jews in the exile community over time managed to become respected civil servants in Babylonian institutions. Dr.Matthew Easton, The Babylonian Exile, pg 12.......to be cont....

Sauron · 11-11-2005, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

cont....attribution #1 of analysis 1 Quote" Generally, captives who had special skills faired better under the quasi-feudal captivity of the Babylonians, who required payment of taxation to the royal treasury in goods and labor. Captive jews worked as laborers, artisans, scribes, and domestic servants. Many jews in the exile community over time managed to become respected civil servants in Babylonian institutions. Dr.Matthew Easton, The Babylonian Exile, pg 12.......to be cont....

Yes.......so?

Where is the connection to Ezekiel and contacts at the Babylonian court?

mata leao · 11-11-2005, 07:24 PM

cont....attribution #1 of analysis 1 Quote "It is not without some irony that the "wandering jew" pulled himself up by his sandal straps and made something of himself in the travails of captivity and exile.Bright young Hebrew boys often were able to ingratiate themselves with their masters and achieved ascendancy in their masters' households.Joseph, as an administrator rose to prominence in Egypt and Daniel and Ezekiel as young scholars gained access to the Babylonian Court. Dr. Jacob Hoffeldt,edt,Dr.Thomas Mueller,edt "Chronicles of the Diaspora" 1919...to be cont....

Sauron · 11-11-2005, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

cont....attribution #1 of analysis 1 Quote "It is not without some irony that the "wandering jew" pulled himself up by his sandal straps and made something of himself in the travails of captivity and exile.Bright young Hebrew boys often were able to ingratiate themselves with their masters and achieved ascendancy in their masters' households.Joseph, as an administrator rose to prominence in Egypt and Daniel and Ezekiel as young scholars gained access to the Babylonian Court. Dr. Jacob Hoffeldt,edt,Dr.Thomas Mueller,edt "Chronicles of the Diaspora" 1919...to be cont....

What is the source of this claim? Other than the author's speculation, I mean?

mata leao · 11-11-2005, 07:48 PM

cont.....attribution #1 of analysis 1 cont...."Daniel was a contemporary of Ezekiel and Ezekiel mentions Daniel as a 'pattern of righteousness and wisdom' 14:14-20,28:3,...D.J. Wiseman. "Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon (1983). "Nebuchadnezzar gave the captive Hebrew scholars and prophets unprecedented access to the Babylonian Court, for a foreign conquered people",Ibid. to be cont........

mata leao · 11-11-2005, 08:11 PM

I have quite abox here of assorted academic articles and lecture transcripts, notes ect,but I dont know how well much of this will "google".....later I will go thru more of it and run it thru google and see what is avail on the internet.....fwiw one of my profs lectured that the jewish scholarly elite of the Babylonian exiles were a very tight knit group and they visited and socialized actively (many of them were separated from their families and all they had was each other), prof"The jews were survivors and Neb. respected that, the jews had stood up to conqueror after conqueror and stood by their religion .....even under pain of death..... it is certainly no surprise that Neb. came to have a grudging respect for the Hebrew God".... to be cont.......

Sauron · 11-11-2005, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

I have quite abox here of assorted academic articles and lecture transcripts, notes ect,but I dont know how well much of this will "google".....later I will go thru more of it and run it thru google and see what is avail on the internet.....fwiw one of my profs lectured that the jewish scholarly elite of the Babylonian exiles were a very tight knit group and they visited and socialized actively (many of them were separated from their families and all they had was each other), prof"The jews were survivors and Neb. respected that, the jews had stood up to conqueror after conqueror and stood by their religion .....even under pain of death..... it is certainly no surprise that Neb. came to have a grudging respect for the Hebrew God".... to be cont.......

Do any of these actually cite an original text? Cuneiform inscription? Anything other than their private speculations?

I've heard many christian authors speculate on what happened during the "flight into Egypt", or during the silent years between Christ's birth, appearance at the temple, and start of ministry. But it remains their speculation, or a recycled version of extra-biblical and/or apocryphal stories. There is zero inside the New Testament to rely upon to sort that question out, however. The same principle (and danger) holds here: people passing off their honest speculations as actually being sourced in any kind of hard evidence.

Also - what context was this 'prof' speaking in? College course? If so, what course/college?

John A. Broussard · 11-11-2005, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

Daniel and Ezekiel as young scholars gained access to the Babylonian Court. Dr. Jacob Hoffeldt,edt,Dr.Thomas Mueller,edt "Chronicles of the Diaspora" 1919...to be cont....

This sentence clearly shows the problem you are dealing with. You have nothing but Dr. Hoffeldt's word for this. No supporting evidence. No manuscripts from contemporaries to appeal to. Nothing from Hoffeldt in the way of documentation.

If he is just speculating, there's nothing wrong with that. But he has to give some basis for his speculation and has to make it clear that what he is presenting is just that--speculation.

Do you always just accept the word of someone with "Dr." in front of their name simply because they say something is so?

Johnny Skeptic · 11-11-2005, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mata leao

Then you are a fraud my friend and the debate is over. The prophecy was fulfilled brilliantly and in detail, that is why it has been one of the finest apologetical arguments for centuries and remains so today.

Now really, mata leao. The most important prerequisite for debating prophecy is establishing that it was written before the events. You have not done that. Therefore, it is you who are the fraud. Without accurate dating, all of the details of the prophecy are completely irrelevant. Even if a version of the prophecy was written before the events, do you have any evidence that the original version is the same version that we have today? Well of course you don't.

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11-11-2005, 06:38 PM	#422
mata leao Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: tampa,florida Posts: 342	cont....attribution #1 of analysis 1 Quote" Generally, captives who had special skills faired better under the quasi-feudal captivity of the Babylonians, who required payment of taxation to the royal treasury in goods and labor. Captive jews worked as laborers, artisans, scribes, and domestic servants. Many jews in the exile community over time managed to become respected civil servants in Babylonian institutions. Dr.Matthew Easton, The Babylonian Exile, pg 12.......to be cont....

11-11-2005, 07:24 PM	#424
mata leao Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: tampa,florida Posts: 342	cont....attribution #1 of analysis 1 Quote "It is not without some irony that the "wandering jew" pulled himself up by his sandal straps and made something of himself in the travails of captivity and exile.Bright young Hebrew boys often were able to ingratiate themselves with their masters and achieved ascendancy in their masters' households.Joseph, as an administrator rose to prominence in Egypt and Daniel and Ezekiel as young scholars gained access to the Babylonian Court. Dr. Jacob Hoffeldt,edt,Dr.Thomas Mueller,edt "Chronicles of the Diaspora" 1919...to be cont....

11-11-2005, 07:48 PM	#426
mata leao Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: tampa,florida Posts: 342	cont.....attribution #1 of analysis 1 cont...."Daniel was a contemporary of Ezekiel and Ezekiel mentions Daniel as a 'pattern of righteousness and wisdom' 14:14-20,28:3,...D.J. Wiseman. "Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon (1983). "Nebuchadnezzar gave the captive Hebrew scholars and prophets unprecedented access to the Babylonian Court, for a foreign conquered people",Ibid. to be cont........

11-11-2005, 08:11 PM	#427
mata leao Banned Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: tampa,florida Posts: 342	I have quite abox here of assorted academic articles and lecture transcripts, notes ect,but I dont know how well much of this will "google".....later I will go thru more of it and run it thru google and see what is avail on the internet.....fwiw one of my profs lectured that the jewish scholarly elite of the Babylonian exiles were a very tight knit group and they visited and socialized actively (many of them were separated from their families and all they had was each other), prof"The jews were survivors and Neb. respected that, the jews had stood up to conqueror after conqueror and stood by their religion .....even under pain of death..... it is certainly no surprise that Neb. came to have a grudging respect for the Hebrew God".... to be cont.......

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