Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Javaman · 03-28-2005, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonesg

How can the unbaptised go to heaven.?

Because it's not a requirement to get in - excepts as an interpretation by some sects of Christianity. Neither is being 'Born again' {sic}.

If you think it is a requirement by (I assume) your God, you then think that something else happens to unborn children? What happens and do you have any evidence for your stance?

Jehanne · 03-28-2005, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javaman

This is akin to the argument for abortion. If a Christian holds the view that aborted foetuses (foeti?) go to heavan (and most that I know do), should they not favor abortion as it increases the heavanly odds to %100?

Aborted fetuses go to Limbo, the “uppermost�? level of Hell.

Godless Wonder · 03-28-2005, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spherical Time

How would not having children break the cycle of reincarnation? This is equivalent of asking why Buddhists aren't out to kill all living things, everywhere.

Not having children wouldn't solve the problem, the only way to solve the problem is enlightenment.

Suppose every human everywhere stopped having children. Within 100 years, no more humans. Perhaps I misunderstand Buddhism (quite possible, I know little about it.) Perhaps allowing people to go extinct would simply force all the reincarnations "down" into other animals and plants, and eliminate all possibility of enlightenment? Or can a non-human acheive enlightenment?

Since you brought it up, why aren't Buddhists out to kill all living things everywhere? That would seem a surefire way to break the cycle of reincarnation.

Well, I suppose could be because it is too likely that such an effort would fail and leave some algae or lichens or something to survive and force all reincarnations to appear in that nonenlightenment-attaining form forever, or at least until evolution eventually produced some intelligence again?

Javaman · 03-28-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jehanne

(Traditional Catholic Viewpoint) Aborted fetuses go to Limbo, the “uppermost�? level of Hell.

Just don't ask Catholics to defend that kind of Godly action:

Wiki:

Quote:

The root meaning of limbo is "boundary". While "limbo" is often popularly understood to be a "place where souls go", the term also describes and reflects theological uncertainty. As such, limbo is not part of the Church's official doctrine (compare purgatory, which is). Official Church teaching remains that the status of these souls (who don't seem to deserve hell, yet cannot follow the divinely-revealed path to heaven) is in limbo – in other words, their fate cannot be determined.

And the modern Church's take:

Quote:

The existence of the Limbo of Children is highly doubted in today's Church. Pope John Paul II, in his encyclical letter Evangelium Vitae (The Gospel of Life), touched on the issue when speaking about the victims of abortion. He said that the church does not know the fate of unbaptized infants, but advised Catholics to trust in God's mercy and love.

That's fine by me, I suppose but I bet if you ask what happens to foetuses and unbaptised babies when they die, you'll get a variety of answers with none of them making their god look bad. It would seem an uncomfortable thing to say - "Oh, yep, those dead babies get tortured for eternity. It's God's will."

P.S. Why can't I spell heaven?

Jehanne · 03-28-2005, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javaman

Just don't ask Catholics to defend that kind of Godly action:

Wiki: And the modern Church's take: That's fine by me, I suppose but I bet if you ask what happens to foetuses and unbaptised babies when they die, you'll get a variety of answers with none of them making their god look bad. It would seem an uncomfortable thing to say - "Oh, yep, those dead babies get tortured for eternity. It's God's will."

P.S. Why can't I spell heaven?

"If anyone says that, because the Lord said 'In My Father's house are many mansions,' it might be understood that in the Kingdom of Heaven there will be some middle place, or some place anywhere, where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without Baptism, without which they cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven which is life eternal: Let him be anathema. For when the Lord says 'Unless one be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter into the Kingdom of God,' what Catholic will doubt that one who has not deserved to be a co-heir with Christ will be a partner of the Devil?" (Pope Zosimus at the Council of Carthage XVI, Canon 3, Denzinger, 30th edition, p.45, note 2).

http://www.catholicism.org/pages/infant.htm

Javaman · 03-28-2005, 04:02 PM

That is kinda crazy. YHWH is unchanging but his infallible earthly headmaster can re-decide what dogma to preach. Then again, the LDS church is the same way.

Philippe* · 03-28-2005, 05:12 PM

Gore fans welcome ! In France, there were even ugly cases. For women having a difficult birth some priests advised to cut the body of the women to the uterus to get the children and baptize them to allow them to get into heaven.

Philippe

Jehanne · 03-28-2005, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philippe*

Gore fans welcome ! In France, there were even ugly cases. For women having a difficult birth some priests advised to cut the body of the women to the uterus to get the children and baptize them to allow them to get into heaven.

Philippe

Straight out of his Summa Theologica:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/406811.htm

Spherical Time · 03-29-2005, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godless Wonder

Suppose every human everywhere stopped having children. Within 100 years, no more humans. Perhaps I misunderstand Buddhism (quite possible, I know little about it.) Perhaps allowing people to go extinct would simply force all the reincarnations "down" into other animals and plants, and eliminate all possibility of enlightenment? Or can a non-human acheive enlightenment?

Since you brought it up, why aren't Buddhists out to kill all living things everywhere? That would seem a surefire way to break the cycle of reincarnation.

Well, I suppose could be because it is too likely that such an effort would fail and leave some algae or lichens or something to survive and force all reincarnations to appear in that nonenlightenment-attaining form forever, or at least until evolution eventually produced some intelligence again?

The answer is close to what you suggest. Buddhism is based on the idea of circular time, so even if the Buddhists managed to kill all life, it would probably re-develope and then the cycle would continue.

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03-28-2005, 04:02 PM	#16
Javaman Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Nebraska Posts: 1,708	That is kinda crazy. YHWH is unchanging but his infallible earthly headmaster can re-decide what dogma to preach. Then again, the LDS church is the same way.

03-28-2005, 05:12 PM	#17
Philippe* Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,191	Gore fans welcome ! In France, there were even ugly cases. For women having a difficult birth some priests advised to cut the body of the women to the uterus to get the children and baptize them to allow them to get into heaven. Philippe

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