Chili

Mystics are spiritually empowered 'believers/doubters' and if they are into angel worship they are 'lost-losers' and the proof of this is that they failed to recognize that Mohammed had his angles mixed up as Gabriel is a 'first cause' angel that 'ends' with its first cause and is not a 'religion builder' in a reign where temples do not belong (Rev.21:22), that so makes him the idiot of idiots like none ever has been.

Now 'lost-losers' are what they call smoke-screens in logic that a 'senior' should never fall for as they are violent and deceptive to get believers make the first step into their game, and grocery stores use them all the time, but really they are violent like a sacrifice bid in bridge . . . , which may be part of the game where it is used to yield a winner by 'going down' and that sure is not what life is about. Oops, 'saved sinners' anyone?

Chili

One is Jewish protestant and the other is Catholic protestant while both are wrong and finally must resort to violence to prove themselves and will start fighting if they have to.

sotto voce

After he had witnessed his own action in preparing to sacrifice Isaac on Moriah, Abram sacrificed a ram in place of Isaac, and was then told that he was acceptable, or justified, in the eyes of YHWH. It is not recorded that he made further sacrifices. So it may be supposed that Abraham, who had been called Abram, realised that he was fully justified by his faith, that he had seen for himself in action in the most compelling way possible, and needed to make no more sacrifices.

We are not told that he was. Abram merely carried out sacrifices as was commonly done at the time. There was no command for him to sacrifice at all. He presumably did so, as did others, out of love for deity, because that is what deity was then perceived to deem acceptable and desirable.

Definitely not. The Torah perspective is, "Ok, seeing that you have no faith, let's see if you can obey laws. If you can, you'll be as acceptable as Abraham, whose descendants you are, who was accepted because of his faith." But it was not long before attempt to keep Mosaic Law was seen as no substitute for faith, and the Tanakh is thereafter a long, long tale of partial success at most, and often calamity. Nine tribes out of twelve defected, the rest were eventually ruled by Gentiles. After that, all meaningful trace of ancient Israel was wiped out, leaving nothing more than Abraham left behind; just a record.

The Torah perspective was that of an approach to YHWH that was essentially for rebels. Abraham, 'friend of God', had needed no animal sacrifices. He simply believed God when he was told that Isaac would live to fulfil the promise made to him. According to the text, his offspring in the desert had been faithless, fractious and disobedient, and Moses had to try hard to prevent YJWH from destroying the sons of Israel. But the promise to Abraham was remembered, and divine anger relented; but only with the imposition of over 600 laws, many of them not moral, but finicky, concerning diet, hygiene and ritual. This, in great contrast to Abraham's utterly 'religionless' dealings, was nothing like the ideal. In the view of later Israelites, it was a temporary measure to prepare in various ways for the Messiah, whose action would be to make complete sense of the faith of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the other saints of the Tanakh whose faith was made evident by their actions.

Net2004

so sotto voces god had to cool himself by obeying his own stupid ritual of blood sacrifice. before the jews sacrificed thier animals they had to do few rituals because yhwh told them to. in christianity yhwh does a ritual to himself through pagan hands. so why did yhwh give useless laws/rituals to the jews in the 1st place? only to come down and do them to himself ? so it was kinda like olympics god who for his own satifaction filled his created flesh and said , " you can't do these rituals better than me " what kind of a dumb as s god is this? the jews at judaism 101 say that they perform thier RITUAL /laws because they do not want to disobey god and if they would do something DIFFICULT for thier families, then why not god?

god gave laws to people who he knew were unable to do those laws . so what was your god thinking ? only to come down and have fun with his own laws?

Net2004

which christians are you hanging around with? abraham didn't only believe god, but he had to do good works in order to impress his god.noah also had to build a boat to save himself and others from destruction, this isnt belief but deeds with belief. job refused to curse god and offered sacrifices NOT FOR himself but for his future sons. it is a lie to say "he simply believed..." talking about rituals /laws , tell me something, how does symbolically eating jebus' meat and blood make you a BETTER person? you have belief that god sacrificed his created life to his infite life, so how does that work for you today? how does beliving in gods stupid ritual to himself prevent you from sinning in your brain and actions? how does believing that god got gang raped or that he took a difficult a level test or that he died of dehydration in anyway fix your spiritual world ? your god is very a selfish god, for his own satisfaction he wanted to to taste torcher and death to prevent himself from torchering humans in hell. he may have benefited from his SELF ABUSE but what does that SELF ABUSE DO for you in 2012? you have your SYMBOLIC RITUALS in your brains and onsundays you eat your god and drink his blood, so what good are these RITUALS doing for oyu?

Net2004

from jewish PERSPECTIVE IT is deeds which impress yhwh and deeds which save humans from destruction. so the jews argue that faith is demonstrated through deeds.

quote:

. The Torah prescribes that, on Yom Kippur, when we come together as a community to "repent" and seek forgiveness for all the wrongs we have done in the preceding year, we are to "make our bodies suffer" (Vayikra 16:31, 23:27, 23:32; B'midbar 29:7), a term that means fasting (abstaining from both food and drink). Prayer is also implied, because fasting without prayer is both meaningless and pointless. In Biblical times fasting was accompanied by the symbolic act of dressing in sacking, which is coarse and uncomfortable, and also very unattractive. By making these sacrifices (using that word in a very loose and general sense) the penitent demonstrates his remorse in a very practical way, and they are far more meaningful "sacrifices" than slaughtering an ox or a goat that never did anyone any harm. It will be seen from the passage from Yonah quoted above that the people of Nin'veh adopted all these practices: their king ordered them to abandon their wicked behaviour, to fast, and to dress in sacking, and to pray for forgiveness. He himself even went one step further, humbling himself by "rising from his throne and sitting on ashes". Verse 9 shows that he didn't even know for sure whether their "repentance" would "save" them (Who knows, perhaps God will relent and change His mind...), but the following verse states clearly that it did, and that it was their practical demonstration of remorse that led to them being forgiven: "And when God saw their deeds - that they had returned from their evil ways..."

end quote

SO when god saw their DEEDS he changed his mind . he didn't DESTROY the people who repented. no animal sacrifice and no symbolically burning god to god.

why is the torah a book of contradictions? sometimes yhwh wants blood other times he wants deeds.


what in a 4 legged animal do you see "temporary measure to prepare in various ways..." ?
do the jews who read their bibles see anything special about the 4 legged animal or its blood?

i quote:

By giving something of value and realizing that it could easily have been our life that was forfeit instead of the sacrifice. Via kosher sacrifice we experience the emotional response that mortal life is fleeting and can be gone in an instance. We may only sacrifice things we OWN -- thus giving up something of value for the betterment of our spiritual selves.
The value in sacrifice is in giving of ourselves (the best of our selves, read Genesis 4:7) and the understanding that we owe everything, including our very lives, to Him.

This is why we sacrifice to G-d. Man is the one who NEEDS, not G-d. If the value in sacrifice is in the experience of giving of OURSELVES how does a god sacrificing himself for some nebulous reason make sense?

Pamela Spencer

Viewing the "Muslims" as "Jewish-protestants" or "Jewish-Christians" is not nearly as blasphemous as it may initially sound. Jewish scholar and academic, Mikhah Ben David, of the Hashlamah Project, argues that both Jesus and Muhammad can be regarded as legitimate Jewish prophets. Mikhah Ben David is also the author of the book, The "Ka`bah as a Jewish Sukkah: Why Muhammad Prayed Towards Jerusalem and Mecca."


In Mark 5:17, we are reminded of Jesus' staunch commitment to adhering to the Mosaic commandments:


"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Furthermore, the Koran regards both the Torah, and the Koran, as "Al-Furqan" ("the Criterion").

It is stated that Rabbi Ya`qov Yosef, a disciple of the Besht, quoted Rabbeinu Bahya on Muhammad's role as Chassid --the article can be found at Judeo-Sufi's blogspot.

sotto voce

The Prophets came after the Law, because the Law was inadequate. Jesus came after the Law, because the Law was inadequate. A Messiah was promised because the Law was inadequate, demonstrably so, egregiously, disastrously so. Jesus did not come to a complete, autonomous, orthodox, thriving Israel. Jesus came to a remnant of the original Israel, an Israel enfeebled by man-made regulations and compromise, a remnant under Gentile occupation, an unthinkable situation under Moses. Law had led only to a parlous situation. The Law of Moses was never intended as a permanency, because it was only a crystallisation of natural law, which, in biblical perspective, is the whole problem, and never the answer. The whole Bible is the provision of a solution to those angels with a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Anything that relies on law, even slightly, is not Abrahamic, but is in total antithesis to Abrahamism.

According to the NT, Jesus himself adhered to Mosaic Law because he had to present a perfect sacrifice for others, who did not adhere to Mosaic Law. His very purpose, according to the NT, was to remove the indictment of conscience that applied until his death via Mosaic Law, that now applies to no-one at all, but that still applies through natural law. It was, according to the NT, precisely because he fulfilled both natural and Mosaic Law that neither has the power to condemn. He also fulfilled the prophecies of the Prophets when he did this.

Duvduv

This Muslim apologetic statement does not solve the problem. Being in a clan of Aaron the Levite is also being in the clan of Moses (Musa). The informed writer would have known that a reader would immediately note the apparent anachronism (among others). It is clear to me that the person who wrote this did not read the synoptic gospels or the Torah, merely heard stories and wasn't familiar enough with the whole picture. Thus he made the obvious mistake - Maryam is not ONLY the sister of Aaron but also the daughter of AMRAM.

sotto voce

This may have been deliberately concocted.