Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Dylan · 01-31-2004, 11:19 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/31/ar...partner=GOOGLE

or if that doesn't work:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/...0131focus.html

Thoughts?

As someone quoted in the article alludes to, I think a large part of it is more of a relationship between countries with certain social circumstances that lead to religion as opposed to religion fostering economic growth. For example

Quote:

Some of the lowest levels of religiosity were found in China and North Korea. The lowest levels of economic growth were in sub-Saharan African countries. The former East Germany (which includes Weber's birthplace) was one of the lowest in both religiosity and growth

China, North Korea and East Germany was/is communist and they didn't/don't have the nicest governments around. Sub-Saharan Africa - there's AIDS, wars, etc etc etc. All of these factors can easily stagnate economic growth.

It also says:

Quote:

"South Korea is a good example of that rapid growth and more religion," he said. There the number of converts from Confucianism and other Eastern religions to Christianity is growing rapidly, he explained.

Economic expansion generally brings in western values which can include Christianity.

And the last sentence there confuses me - did this only focus on Christianity? Does confucianism not lead to economic growth?

And what about the Middle East - very religious, yet many of the countries are experiencing economic problems?

Also, it bugged me that they didn't mention exact percentages in this article.

Toto · 01-31-2004, 11:37 AM

Quote:

But one of the major challenges to such research is that countries that vary in their religious beliefs and practices also vary in ways that have nothing to do with religion, said Paola Sapienza, a professor of finance at Northwestern University. "Are you really picking up religion or something that correlates with it, like certain laws or social and economic institutions?" she asked.

This study is the sort of thing that gives social science research a bad name - lots of variables, with no clear idea of what influences what. But studies on religion are very hot now - this research was sponsored in part by the Templeton Foundation, which is throwing money (lots of $$$) at academics to try to find positive things to say about religion in general. If you can find something new and provocative to say that puts religion in a good light, the Templeton Foundation will give you a grant.

This appears to be the research:

Religion and Economic Growth (pdf file requires Acrobat reader)

xorbie · 01-31-2004, 11:42 AM

Hmm. A famous sociologist, Marx Weber, wrote a book called The Protestant Work Ethic. One of his theses was that capitalism spread far better in a protestant as opposed to catholic society. His explanation (as a social psychologist) was that it had to do with the principle that God determined if you were going to heaven or hell before you born. It was said that those who were blessed enough to go to heaven would often receive God's blessing in real life. Naturally, this meant people who had enough money were thought to be blessed, and those who were poor were thought to be cursed and their problems were blamed on the fact that God hated them.

Thus, money actually bought peace of mind. By working hard enough and saving money, someone could get wealthy enough that others began to believe he was blessed. This in turn gave him comfort and peace of mind.

I actually believe that this thesis has tested fairly well. In areas in South America that are still catholic, growth is slow. In areas where protestants evangalize a lot, capitalism spreads a lot faster and growth occurs at a faster rate. If anyone has some links to this, that would be awesome.

Joel

Toto · 01-31-2004, 12:12 PM

DISCREDITED THEORIES LIVE ON IN ACADEMIA, AUTHOR SAYS

Quote:

A recent review of 15 undergraduate sociology textbooks found that all discussed Max Weber's thesis that the Protestant work ethic was the decisive factor in the rise of capitalism in the West.

The problem is that most books gave unqualified approval for the theory, even though it has been subjected to serious criticism for some 90 years, according to Richard Hamilton, a professor of sociology at Ohio State University.

. . .

The famous sociologist Max Weber first published the theory in 1905 in his book The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. His basic argument was that there was a strong causal connection between ascetic Protestantism and the rise of capitalism in the West.

The book has been considered a masterpiece and gained widespread acceptance, especially in sociology, Hamilton said. However, several more contemporary scholars -- including economic historian Jacob Viner and sociologist Gordon Marshall -- have shown major flaws in Weber's argument and found a disturbing lack of evidence to back up Weber's claims.

Some of Weber's obvious factual errors have continued to be published today, long after they have been exposed, Hamilton said. For example, in the first chapter of his book, Weber reviews 1895 enrollment in the schools of Baden, a German state. His statistics show that there were 21 percent more Protestants than Catholics in the scientifically oriented high schools. Weber trumpeted this as proof that Protestants were more likely than Catholics to be preparing for a career in business or science, key fields for the development of capitalism.

But in 1957, one critic pointed to an obvious error -- the key row of percentages added up to 109 percent. A recent reanalysis of the original data, making an appropriate control, has discovered the Protestant-Catholic difference to be near zero.

However, the original error -- the row of percentages adding up to 109 percent -- has continued to appear in later editions of Weber's book. No acknowledgment is made of the new evidence or the damage it does to Weber's thesis.

"Many sociology textbooks continue to give the Weber hypothesis without even a sign that there's a problem," Hamilton said.

The sociology textbooks also leave out well-researched alternative hypotheses that could explain the real cause of the rise of capitalism. One compelling hypothesis is that it wasn't Protestantism but technological innovations -- most notably larger, more seaworthy ships and superior cannons -- that gave capitalistic countries like England and the Netherlands their advantage over other nations. "Textbooks could list the alternative hypotheses and at least give readers something to think about," he said.

01-31-2004, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by xorbie

I actually believe that this thesis has tested fairly well. In areas in South America that are still catholic, growth is slow. In areas where protestants evangalize a lot, capitalism spreads a lot faster and growth occurs at a faster rate. If anyone has some links to this, that would be awesome.

Joel

In big businnes (I once read) it is believed that the best way to achieve prosperity is to put a Catholic at the helm and a Protestant second in command to enforce the work ethic.

Dylan · 01-31-2004, 12:19 PM

Interesting points.

Quote:

Originally posted by xorbie
Hmm. A famous sociologist, Marx Weber, wrote a book called The Protestant Work Ethic....[snip]
Joel

I wonder what the comparison is between catholic countries and secular ones?

Also (I havent looked at that PDF yet) does anyone know of largely secular societies with booming economies?

Edit:

What are other factors that influence economic development. Say for a second that this study & its conclusions are for the most part true-how do you think nations that are pretty much identical culturally except with one difference - religion & secular- would compare? Obviously there are no too such nations, but it's something worth to ponder

Toto · 01-31-2004, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dylan
. . . does anyone know of largely secular societies with booming economies?

Japan comes to mind, although they are no longer "booming" and I'm sure that the religionists classify them as "Confucianist."

01-31-2004, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto
Japan comes to mind, although they are no longer "booming" and I'm sure that the religionists classify them as "Confucianist."

And don't forget, they borrowed/purchased a lot of knowledge from our civilization to jumpstart theirs.

Silent Acorns · 01-31-2004, 02:54 PM

It's too bad that that pdf file is 53 pages, I don't have time to read that much detail. What I'd like to know is how China is a good example of low religon = low growth rate. China's economy has been booming for over a decade at a rate of over 10% per year.

hinduwoman · 01-31-2004, 06:49 PM

Middle Eastern countries are deeply religious but their economic conditions are deplorable.

India is deeply religious too, but it has been doing better.

So how is religion involved in economics?

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01-31-2004, 11:42 AM	#3
xorbie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Champaign, IL or Boston, MA Posts: 6,360	Hmm. A famous sociologist, Marx Weber, wrote a book called The Protestant Work Ethic. One of his theses was that capitalism spread far better in a protestant as opposed to catholic society. His explanation (as a social psychologist) was that it had to do with the principle that God determined if you were going to heaven or hell before you born. It was said that those who were blessed enough to go to heaven would often receive God's blessing in real life. Naturally, this meant people who had enough money were thought to be blessed, and those who were poor were thought to be cursed and their problems were blamed on the fact that God hated them. Thus, money actually bought peace of mind. By working hard enough and saving money, someone could get wealthy enough that others began to believe he was blessed. This in turn gave him comfort and peace of mind. I actually believe that this thesis has tested fairly well. In areas in South America that are still catholic, growth is slow. In areas where protestants evangalize a lot, capitalism spreads a lot faster and growth occurs at a faster rate. If anyone has some links to this, that would be awesome. Joel

01-31-2004, 02:54 PM	#9
Silent Acorns Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: SW 31 52 24W4 Posts: 1,508	It's too bad that that pdf file is 53 pages, I don't have time to read that much detail. What I'd like to know is how China is a good example of low religon = low growth rate. China's economy has been booming for over a decade at a rate of over 10% per year.

01-31-2004, 06:49 PM	#10
hinduwoman Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: India Posts: 6,977	Middle Eastern countries are deeply religious but their economic conditions are deplorable. India is deeply religious too, but it has been doing better. So how is religion involved in economics?

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