mountainman

Some people have conjectured that some of the non canonical gospels may have been authored before the canonical gospels. The hot gospel in this regard is Thomas out of NHC 2.2 - because it looks suspiciously like a Q profile in the lineup of texts at Nag Hammadi (despite Nag Hammadi being C14 dated to the mid 4th century).

Others think that parts out of the Gospel of Peter predate the tetrarchy of canonical gospels. But as far as I have seen, these are exceptional and not mainstream conjectures.

You may want to have a think about the books of the new testament which were published in the 4th century in the COnstantine Bibles, but which were not carried through in the closure of the NT canon. Like "The Shepherd of Hermas". How early was the "Good Shepherd Story" for example?

But all this of course depends upon when you think the gospels were written.

aa5874

And it has been simply answered.

There were Christians of all sorts, of RIOTOUS Diversity, BEFORE the Gospels.

Please read "Against Heresies" by Irenaeus, "Prescription Against the Heretics" by Tertullian and "Refutation of ALL Heresies" by Hippolytus.

You seem not to understand that the Jesus story is NOT the origin of Christianity and that Heretics were Christians.

You seem not to understand that there were Christians who BELIEVE in God ONLY and that BELIEF in God PREDATES the Jesus story.

Justin Martyr has ALREADY made it known that there were Christians since the time of the Emperor Claudius who worshiped the Magician Simon Magus as a God.

judge

Ok as an example here is "against heresies".
Can you show me where this work displays evidence that there was riotous diversity prior to the gospels?

Toto

First, tell us what date you accept as "before the gospels." There is no evidence of the gospels before about 150 CE, and no evidence of any names for the gospels until Irenaeus provides names for the four gospels that would become canonical.

If you accept this date, then Irenaeus fulminates against the Valentinians, the Ebionites, the Cerinthians, the Marcosians, Saturnius, Basilides, Carpocrates, Cerdo. . . is this enough diversity for you? Is it not riotous enough? Do you think that it is not "before the gospels?"

What exactly is the problem?

neilgodfrey

I was about to ask the same question as Toto's. In my original post I was referencing the date of the gospels as generally understood in most basic texts: 70 to 100 ce. Even with that date period for the gospels we have the Christianity represented by Paul's letters, another type by the Pastorals, the letters of John and John's gospel have a different take, so does the letter of James, and then there is the "letter" to the Hebrews, and Revelation. And Paul's and John's letters, and the Pastorals, speak of conflicting Christianities, usually pronouncing curses upon each other. So, it seems, does Revelation. And then there is the "Christian community" of Mark's gospel that the authors of Matthew and Luke clearly did not like at all, at least to the extent that they had to re-write that Gospel and present a very different Jesus and group of early followers. Forgot to mention the clues in Acts of early rival groupings with different leaderships and varying ethnic and doctrinal bases.

But if we rely on dating the gospels according to external attestation and evidence of anachronisms within the narratives then they become early to even mid second century documents and the list of other Christianities mushrooms.

aa5874

So you want me to read to you? I made references to the books so that you can read them like I did.

I have already pointed out Simon Magus the Magician a Christian who preached the Heresy that he was a God since the time of the Emperor Claudius. And I have also pointed out Menander a Christian who preached the Heresy that he would NEVER die.

That a Magician who claimed he was a God and was the LEADER of a Massive CHRISTIAN cult must imply RIOTOUS Diversity in Christianity.

There are MORE in the other books.

Please read "Against Heresies" by Irenaeus, "Prescription Against the Heretics" by Tertullian and "Refutation of ALL Heresies" by Hippolytus.

aeebee50

I thought Simon was the Sorceror (sorcerer depending on how you spell it) that was flying and Peter prayed to God to stop him. http://www.witchcraftandwitches.com/witches_magus.html What a way to die. Your own people stoning you when you are down with broken legs. Peter was real happy.

Joan of Bark

Why don't you write to Ehrman and ask him yourself? I've e-mailed him twice and received a response within 48 hours each time.

behrman@email.unc.edu

Sheshbazzar

What the content of the Pauline letters, and content of The Gospels show, is that both sources were altered, corrupted, and just plain fucked with by the Christian Church Mafia for over a hundred years.
NONE of the contents are trustworthy, and not one paragraph can be trusted to accurately represent anything believed by the earliest Christians.
Arguing about what these texts now contain is like examining the contents of bird-shit and trying thereby to determine who it was that fed the bird what bit.
Whatever it might have been, the Christian process turned it all into a steaming heap of do-do.

mrsonic

there is a verse in the new testament which talks about the pharisees in moses seat and that the deciples are to do what the pharisees command them.

is the jesus who is quoted in that verse commanding the deciples to do what the pharisees command them?


"...all that they tell you, do and observe..."

he is not telling them that they obey the pharisees more than jesus, right?