Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RUmike · 05-20-2006, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidfromTexas

Are you misquoting Jesus?

Please provide the source of your quote.

Thanks.

He is not misquoting. From Luke 22:35-38, ESV...

And he said to them, "When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing." He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors.' For what is written about me has its fulfillment." And they said, "Look, Lord, here are two swords." And he said to them, "It is enough."

To ChandraRama regarding the messianic secret, even if it is historcially accurate of how Jesus acted, you need to demonstrate how that corresponds to him being a fugitive and/or militant. I don't see any connection.

andrewcriddle · 05-20-2006, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChandraRama

Similarities between John of Gischala and Jesus of Nazereth

...................................
8) Both were militant
a. “if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.” Jesus’ followers carried sword even inside the temple. Used the sword to cut of the ear of a person.
b. John Gischala is a militant zealot leader who was the one of the two main generals who were fighting for the control of the Jerusalem (other is Simon Ben Giora)

Jesus' followers do not appear to have carried swords inside the temple They did cut off with a sword the ear of a member of the temple staff but he was not in the temple at the time. He was part of a posse seeking to arrest Jesus in Gethsemane.

Andrew Criddle

ChandraRama · 05-20-2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

All you need is the other evidence (ie besides the single quote) upon which they rely.

It is not so much a question of an "insist" on my part but a rational obligation on your part as the one making the argument..

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I come not to send peace but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)

Suppose ye that I come to give peace on earth? I will tell you nay, but rather division. (Luke 12:51)

He that hath no sword, let him sell his garments and buy one. (Luke 22:36)

And when he had made a scourge of cords, he drove them out of the temple...and poured out the changer's money and overthrew the tables. (John 2:15)

The crowd surrounding Jesus certainly had not had time to adopt a non- voilent lifestyle. Even his most intimate disciples were clearly not prepared to "turn the other cheek." At least two of them had sobriquets
which suggest that they were linked with the militant activists. One was Simon, called "The Zealot," and the other was Judas, called "Iscariot." There is an uncanny resemblance between Iscariot and sicarii, the word used
by Josephus to identify the knife-wielding, homicidal, dagger men. And in certain Old Latin manuscripts Judas is actually called Zelotes.

See more references and arguments in
http://www.skepticfiles.org/atheist2/jesuspig.htm

RUmike · 05-20-2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChandraRama

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I come not to send peace but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)

Suppose ye that I come to give peace on earth? I will tell you nay, but rather division. (Luke 12:51)

I had this passage in mind, as well. But keep in mind there is only single attestation here (Q). Thomas preserves a version of this saying as well, which some scholars would consider independent (probably not most, though). I am still wrestling personally with what Jesus may have meant by it (as I do consider this probably a historical saying of Jesus). But two pithy aphorisms and one (not very) militant act still can't persuade me that Jesus should be labeled a militant.

ChandraRama · 05-20-2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUmike

I had this passage in mind, as well. But keep in mind there is only single attestation here (Q). Thomas preserves a version of this saying as well, which some scholars would consider independent (probably not most, though). I am still wrestling personally with what Jesus may have meant by it (as I do consider this probably a historical saying of Jesus). But two pithy aphorisms and one (not very) militant act still can't persuade me that Jesus should be labeled a militant.

I suggest the entire article in the url referred in my post for the reference. Just quoting his words would not make much sense devoid of the earlier prophecies of Jeremiah .

DavidfromTexas · 05-20-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RUmike

He is not misquoting. From Luke 22:35-38, ESV...

And he said to them, "When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?" They said, "Nothing." He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in me: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors.' For what is written about me has its fulfillment." And they said, "Look, Lord, here are two swords." And he said to them, "It is enough."

To ChandraRama regarding the messianic secret, even if it is historcially accurate of how Jesus acted, you need to demonstrate how that corresponds to him being a fugitive and/or militant. I don't see any connection.

Thank you for the clarification.

Matthew Henry's comments on the subsequent statement made by Jesus ("It is enough") which you had quoted is interesting...

Quote:

2. He gives them notice of a very great change of their circumstances now approaching. For, (1.) He that was their Master was now entering upon his sufferings, which he had often foretold (v. 37): "Now that which is written must be fulfilled in me, and this among the rest, He was numbered among the transgressors-- he must suffer and die as a malefactor, and in company with some of the vilest of malefactors. This is that which is yet to be accomplished, after all the rest, and then the things concerning me, the things written concerning me, will have an end; then I shall say, It is finished." Note, It may be the comfort of suffering Christians, as it was of a suffering Christ, that their sufferings were foretold, and determined in the counsels of heaven, and will shortly determine in the joys of heaven. They were written concerning them, and they will have an end, and will end well, everlastingly well. (2.) They must therefore expect troubles, and must not think now to have such an easy and comfortable life as they had had; no, the scene will alter. They must now in some degree suffer with their Master; and, when he is gone, they must expect to suffer like him. The servant is not better than his Lord. [1.] They must not now expect that their friends would be so kind and generous to them as they had been; and therefore, He that has a purse, let him take it, for he may have occasion for it, and for all the good husbandry he can use. [2.] They must now expect that their enemies would be more fierce upon them than they had been, and they would need magazines as well as stores: He that has no sword wherewith to defend himself against robbers and assassins (2 Cor. xi. 26) will find a great want of it, and will be ready to wish, some time or other, that he had sold his garment and bought one. This is intended only to show that the times would be very perilous, so that no man would think himself safe if he had not a sword by his side. But the sword of the Spirit is the sword which the disciples of Christ must furnish themselves with. Christ having suffered for us, we must arm ourselves with the same mind (1 Peter iv. 1), arm ourselves with an expectation of trouble, that it may not be a surprise to us, and with a holy resignation to the will of God in it, that there may be no opposition in us to it: and then we are better prepared than if we had sold a coat to buy a sword. The disciples hereupon enquire what strength they had, and find they had among them two swords (v. 38), of which one was Peter's. The Galileans generally travelled with swords. Christ wore none himself, but he was not against his disciples' wearing them. But he intimates how little he would have them depend upon this when he saith, It is enough, which some think is spoken ironically: "Two swords among twelve men! you are bravely armed indeed when our enemies are now coming out against us in great multitudes, and every one with a sword!" Yet two swords are sufficient for those who need none, having God himself to be the shield of their help and the sword of their excellency, Deut. xxxiii. 29.

It seems heavy handed to pin Jesus down as being a militant considering that He said that only 2 swords for the group of 12 was enough, particularly considering that circumstances were about to change drastically... Only one sword was needed to accomplish what happened later with Peter when Jesus was arrested.

ChandraRama · 05-20-2006, 04:24 PM

Jesus and John both had a deputy by name Simon
a) Jesus - Simon (multiple attestations in Gospels)
b) John G- Josephus - Simon is John G's brother. Autobiography 39, War of Jews Chapter 6

Jesus and John asked their followers to abandon their families.
a) Jesus:Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-yes, even his own life-he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
Luke 14:25-27
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 10:32-39"

b) John G. Josephus, Book4, Chapter2: "And indeed, though the man was making haste to get away, and was tormented with fears of being a captive, or of losing his life, yet did he prevail with himself to take out of the city along with him a multitude of women and children, as far as twenty furlongs; but there he left them as he proceeded further on his journey, where those that were left behind made sad lamentations;... And indeed, though the man was making haste to get away, and was tormented with fears of being a captive, or of losing his life, yet did he prevail with himself to take out of the city along with him a multitude of women and children, as far as twenty furlongs; but there he left them as he proceeded further on his journey, where those that were left behind made sad lamentations;"

ChandraRama · 05-21-2006, 06:55 AM

In the earlier post I forgot to add this.

Jesus and John asked their followers to abandon their families, when they moved from Galilee to Jerusalem

RUmike · 05-21-2006, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChandraRama

In the earlier post I forgot to add this.

Jesus and John asked their followers to abandon their families, when they moved from Galilee to Jerusalem

I think it is almost universally recognized by scholars that it's near-impossible (if not completely impossible) to take temporal or causal relationships the evangelists present as anything other than their own creation.

ChandraRama · 05-23-2006, 04:15 AM

Jesus and John both are from poor and low status in Galilee
Jesus : tekton reference
John G: ref:Josephus. John G was poor to start with and built his army from scratch. Against all the other generals being appointed by Sanhedrin from high priests (including Josephus), John G is not a priest.

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05-20-2006, 04:24 PM	#17
ChandraRama Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: US Posts: 107	Jesus and John both had a deputy by name Simon a) Jesus - Simon (multiple attestations in Gospels) b) John G- Josephus - Simon is John G's brother. Autobiography 39, War of Jews Chapter 6 Jesus and John asked their followers to abandon their families. a) Jesus:Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters-yes, even his own life-he cannot be my disciple. And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:25-27 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Matthew 10:32-39" b) John G. Josephus, Book4, Chapter2: "And indeed, though the man was making haste to get away, and was tormented with fears of being a captive, or of losing his life, yet did he prevail with himself to take out of the city along with him a multitude of women and children, as far as twenty furlongs; but there he left them as he proceeded further on his journey, where those that were left behind made sad lamentations;... And indeed, though the man was making haste to get away, and was tormented with fears of being a captive, or of losing his life, yet did he prevail with himself to take out of the city along with him a multitude of women and children, as far as twenty furlongs; but there he left them as he proceeded further on his journey, where those that were left behind made sad lamentations;"

05-21-2006, 06:55 AM	#18
ChandraRama Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: US Posts: 107	In the earlier post I forgot to add this. Jesus and John asked their followers to abandon their families, when they moved from Galilee to Jerusalem

05-23-2006, 04:15 AM	#20
ChandraRama Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: US Posts: 107	Jesus and John both are from poor and low status in Galilee Jesus : tekton reference John G: ref:Josephus. John G was poor to start with and built his army from scratch. Against all the other generals being appointed by Sanhedrin from high priests (including Josephus), John G is not a priest.

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