Transient

But then where did the 4 gospels come from?
Why would they have been written and by whom and when?
They sort of indicate a long standing belief in a real son of god who rose from the dead.

spin

Stating that they constitute multiple attestation doesn't necessarily mean that they are. Not one of these sources was written within a century of the events that they are supposed to be multiple attestations for. You don't know the trajectory for the data supplied by each of the writers you refer to. They may eventually rely on the one source, and, if so, that means you have one attestation. You would need to supply a tenable pedigree for the sources of each writer in order to argue multiple attestation.


spin

Deus Ex

Could it be that the four greek gospels, that we now have, do not represent the beliefs of early Jewish Christians?

Jedi Mind Trick

I believe that James was associated with the Essenes and the Zealots and that early Christianity in Jerusalem was at odds with the later development of Paul's gentile church. I am a James styled "christian" myself because I see in the bible itself a not so well covered antagonism between James and Paul. I used to be a Pauline Christian and I shunned the book of James, but now agree with James.

I used to hear all the reasons why James was in agreement with Paul but they never satisfied the conflict that I saw in the bible and I even internalized that tension hoping and praying that Paul would win out and I would find peace. That all changed when I deconstructed the hell doctrine for myself, then James began to shine with his morality to god and man minus the threat of eternal hell that I think Pauline "grace" is built upon. I do believe in hell states both in this life and the next, but nothing is permanent and all is corrective not punitive.

Jedi Mind Trick

That's pretty much what I think happened. It is also of note that James' community lost its hold on the power structure of the movement in the fall of Jerusalem 70 AD. There was a vacuum and the Pauline brand, being mostly untouched by the cataclysm filled the gap and took the mantle of "orthodoxy". The Ebionites and some other groups were the remnant of the Jerusalem community and were latter declared heretical and were hunted down.

JoeWallack

JW:
Oh god, this Thread is priceless with rhutchin trying to apologize. I guess we'll have to start giving clues to the Christians here, like the above quote, as to what is wrong with Dude's assertion.



Joseph

show_no_mercy

And the inclusion of one letter by a "James" (James the Just? James son of Zebedee/John's bro? James the Greater?) is an attempt to court the James faithful Jewish-Christians. But there are 13 (14 if you count Hebrews) letters from Paul and only one from "James" in the NT, so the Christianity that won is undoubtedly the Christianity of Paul - the Christianity that is anti-James.

Sheshbazzar

James being legalistic and the High Priest in The Temple provides no additional support or evidence for the existence of a "historical guy called Yahshua or whatever".
James and the other Jerusalem pillars might well have held strong messianic convictions without need ever having them attached to any flesh and blood individual. That is, a conviction that the Messiah would come that was prophesied in the TaNaKa, his -"Delivering"- act epitomised in the promise inherent in the name "Yah-ha-oshua"="YAH the DELIVERER" (or conventionally Yahshua), a resurrection as it were of the Covenant "Joshua" (Yahshua) who would once again arise amongst them to "Deliver" Israel in the Land of Promise, by the defeating of all of Israel's then present adversaries and oppressors.

I believe this is what James and the Jerusalem Pillars actually represented, all the rest of the NT stories were latter opportunistic fabrications and accreditations.
Yahshua The Messiah was no more than a spiritual ideal, the expression of a hope for a national Deliverer of Israel, (and through them, ultimately, the entire world) but it was one that never materialised, or was realised in any actual flesh and blood individual.
A truly "historical Jesus" or "Yahshua" cannot ever be found, or precisely identified, or placed in actual history,
because there never was any such person.

Yet the story is powerful and moving, representing how the endurance of hope, and victory of conscience as triumphant, can prevail yet even in the midst of ultimate despair and of humiliating defeat.

Jedi Mind Trick

Yes, but they didn't do a very good job of covering their tracks.

Jedi Mind Trick

You need to read "James the brother of Jesus" if you haven't already. James was the high priest of the zealots (Jesus had several zealots in his cadre... James is possibly "the teacher of righteousness" referred to in the DSS) that took control of the temple in 66CE.