Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dongiovanni1976x · 05-30-2006, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael R. Jordan

Hm, interesting. I have Ehrmans NT testament book too. Would these Christians of such a time have avered to be able to "read" if all they actually did was listen?

In our modern sense "no" and even in the way Rubenstein implies, I would likewise say no. Thus, this is why I think you bring up a good point. I was just seeing if there was anyway to rectify Rubenstien's comment. Guess not really. :huh:

dongiovanni1976x · 05-30-2006, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Don: it has been argued that there was never a time when literacy was higher than they were in Classical Athens. Charles Freeman argues this in his work, "The Closing of the Western Mind".

Chris: I never read the book, but arguments from within are surely appreciated.

It really is the thesis of the whole book. But in a general sense, after Constantine legalized Christianity and tax breaks and favors were afforded to it, it led to the need to define what orthodox belief was...in the long and arduous process of such a struggle, the idea of Greek rationalism was replaced by a rejection of worldly wisdom and a devotion to divine revelation as the basis for wisdom. I don't have the book here to give you some good quotes that demonstrate the degree to which many distanced themselves from the need to read and write. The basic idea was that literacy declined with the fall of the Roman Empire and the rise of the Church, who maintained a monopoly on literacy and thus its position in the heirarchy of Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages.

Michael R. Jordan · 05-30-2006, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I'm not so sure about these numbers. I simply can't imagine that the literacy rate was only 10% in Rome or Alexandria.

For one thing there was a huge amount of trade and commercial activity going on, which required literacy for the record keeping. Then there were so many books and poems written, and law was made public and posted in public squares.

Surely more than 1 in 10 people could read, its not like reading is THAT hard.

I'd like to compare this to literacy rates in the early American South though.

Since all of these civilizations had slaves, are they counting the slaves as a part of the population that couldn't read, or are these rates based only on the literacy rate of free citizens, etc.?

Off memory, i also think ehrman said that such laws/record keeping were fulfilled and performed by scribes. it was just a more tangiable way of doing things.

dongiovanni1976x · 05-30-2006, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I'm not so sure about these numbers. I simply can't imagine that the literacy rate was only 10% in Rome or Alexandria.

For one thing there was a huge amount of trade and commercial activity going on, which required literacy for the record keeping. Then there were so many books and poems written, and law was made public and posted in public squares.

Surely more than 1 in 10 people could read, its not like reading is THAT hard.

10-15 percent of 1 million is 100,000-150,000 that is a sizable chunk of just the city of Rome itself. Easily enough to keep the administration running...let alone those in other cities throughout the empire.
When I was studying Latin my professor demonstrated how it is we came to know how to pronounce Classical Latin as opposed to Medieval Latin...it was by the "mispelled grafitti" and advertisments scattered throught the empire. A good demonstration of how even the quasi-literate were far less literate than those of us nowadays.

Chris Weimer · 05-30-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

Sorry for the confusion...but I was basing that figure on the fact that Rubenstien's entire book is set no earlier than the 4th century. Thus my reason for rounding it up so high...I thought when you said "500 years" you might not have been aware of the time period Rubenstien's book covered.

Ah, if its past 400, then I've got no idea. To me, there stops early Christianity.

andrewcriddle · 05-30-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

I'm not so sure about these numbers. I simply can't imagine that the literacy rate was only 10% in Rome or Alexandria.

For one thing there was a huge amount of trade and commercial activity going on, which required literacy for the record keeping. Then there were so many books and poems written, and law was made public and posted in public squares.

Surely more than 1 in 10 people could read, its not like reading is THAT hard.

We may be talking about different types of literacy.

Being able to write your name, puzzle out a bill from a shop, and get the general sense of a street sign, is something different from being able to read the Gospel of Mark on your own.

Andrew Criddle

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