Amos

No, the relics are just relics of saints.

We can justify our traditions, celebrations and dogmatic constitution because in Catholicism heaven is a state of mind while we are alive here on earth and these are the saints that can see the error of non-Catholic traditions, such as here the baptism of the death by proxy.

In our tradition eternal life, or the Thousand Year Reign if you would prefer that, takes place between the first and second death and therefore ends when we die the second death.

Catholicism does not state that explicitly as I do here but it may be detected when you read the CCC btween what is written and what is not written.

nermal

I'm confused. Are you asserting that catholicism doesn't subscribe to eternal salvation/damnation?

Ed

Amos

Yes it does but not after we die our second death, which is when we physically die. Salvation and damnation are states of mind when we are alive and well in this life. I state this quite clear here but this idea can be detected in Catholicism and is never violated or made impossible by Catholic dogma (which is the purpose for permanence so a rational pope can't overthrow it, for example).

alek0

About the hat:

http://www.lds-mormon.com/jsmith.shtml
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon266.htm
http://www.irr.org/mit/divination.html
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith


About baptism of the dead:
As far as I understand it, the dead person does not have to be someone who died long time ago (like Hitler for example, who has been baptised by LDS). So it is quite possible that the person to be baptized was familiar with LDS beliefs and rejected them. Hence, such ritual is, as I said, ultimate disrespect to the beliefs held by the dead during his life. I understand the rationale - give him/her one more chance, when he/she sees he/she was wrong and god exists he/she will change his/her mind. I have asked specifically several mormon missionaries about what happens if you rejected their teaching while you were alive, they said that regardless of that you have another chance when you die.

As for free will, I really wish that Mormon and other missionaries would have more respect for it. If I reject their religion once, why do I have to do it over and over and over again?

Brahma's atheist

Did I hear correctly that they did Ghandi aswell?

trendkill

That's interesting about the hat.

That would be strange if someone was baptized on behalf of Hitler, who would have absolutely zero chance of getting into the Celestial Kingdom. But anyway, I never said it had to be someone who died a long time ago, I said it usually was.

It does not follow that because someone who lived during the tenure of Mormonism could be baptized by proxy, that the Church would seek to baptize people who had specifically rejected the Gospel.

"Ultimate disrespect"? Sounds a bit dramatic if you ask me. Lots of religions pray or do other ceremonies for the supernatural benefit of heathens. Is that also "ultimate" disrespect?

Really. Well, I'll have to check that out, but just as long as you're aware that missionaries are 20-year-old kids who go on missions because they're expected to, and like as not, know little about the fine points of Mormon doctrine. They're not necessarily experts.

Well, what can I say, they happen to think it's the most important thing in the world. Persistence may be annoying and uncalled-for, but it's not the same as coercion.

sharon45

Yes, this was at a time being done to Jews, and it is very disgusting as you so well put it.

butswana

Don't fall for that "free agency" crap. I exercised my free agency and got excommunicated for it.
I was an avowed atheist at the time, so it's not like I was all broken up over it.
Plus, I couldn't go to church any more because they wouldn't let me in the door!

trendkill

Of course, this is not a violation of your free will. I don't know about you, but the word "consequences" had a prominent place next to agency in my religious education.

butswana

That's not the way they spun it to us. "Do what you want, just repent." That's what they said.