Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Kesler · 08-22-2007, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blood of our Savior

He preached to who he could... that just happend to be jews.

As the verses referenced in the OP indicate, according to Matthew at least, Jesus intentionally avoided ministering to Gentiles. In fact, the Matthean version of Jesus' encounter with the Syrophoenician woman, whom Matthew refers to by the more derogatory term "Canaanite," doesn't even allow for an eventual Gentile mission as the Markan version does.

Quote:

Mark 7:24-30
24 From there he set out and went away to the region of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know he was there. Yet he could not escape notice, 25 but a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately heard about him, and she came and bowed down at his feet. 26Now the woman was a Gentile, of Syrophoenician origin. She begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 He said to her, "Let the children be fed first, for it is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." 28 But she answered him, "Sir, even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs." 29 Then he said to her, "For saying that, you may go--the demon has left your daughter." 30 So she went home, found the child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.

Matthew 15:21-28
21 Jesus left that place and went away to the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is tormented by a demon." 23 But he did not answer her at all. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, "Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." 26 He answered, "It is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." 27 She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered her, "Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed instantly.

Notice that in Mark's version, the Jews (children) are fed first, indicating that the "dogs" (Gentiles) would eventually be fed, while Matthew's Jesus makes no allowance for this later "feeding." Also, Matthew's Jesus ignores the woman at first, and the disciples urge him to "send her away," details also lacking in Mark.

angelo · 08-23-2007, 04:22 AM

[QUOTE=storytime;4724929]

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelo atheist

Well, you see Joseph Smith claimed to have found some golden tablets. After he translated them, and put pen to paper these mysterious tablets flew back to heaven. So what is so strange about jesus flying to the Americas. The Marrons claim to be one of the 12 tribes. I'm not sure about this Macaroni guy. Was macaroni named after him?

Quote:

"Macaroni" is my tweak on Moroni their prophet. He spoke to the angel or something, I'm not that familiar with the Mormon story. So they claim to be one of the 12 tribes? Do they declare to which tribe they belong? All tribes were called Israel.

I don't know much about their stupid cult. I do know that they have to wear special under wear when they go to the temple in Salt Lake City. :rolling:

storytime · 08-23-2007, 05:40 AM

[QUOTE=angelo atheist;4727709]

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

I don't know much about their stupid cult. I do know that they have to wear special under wear when they go to the temple in Salt Lake City. :rolling:

That's funny.

storytime · 08-23-2007, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blood of our Savior

He preached to who he could... that just happend to be jews.

As the verses referenced in the OP indicate, according to Matthew at least, Jesus intentionally avoided ministering to Gentiles. In fact, the Matthean version of Jesus' encounter with the Syrophoenician woman, whom Matthew refers to by the more derogatory term "Canaanite," doesn't even allow for an eventual Gentile mission as the Markan version does.

Quote:

Mark 7:24-30
24 From there he set out and went away to the region of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know he was there. Yet he could not escape notice, 25 but a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately heard about him, and she came and bowed down at his feet. 26Now the woman was a Gentile, of Syrophoenician origin. She begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 He said to her, "Let the children be fed first, for it is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." 28 But she answered him, "Sir, even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs." 29 Then he said to her, "For saying that, you may go--the demon has left your daughter." 30 So she went home, found the child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.

Matthew 15:21-28
21 Jesus left that place and went away to the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is tormented by a demon." 23 But he did not answer her at all. And his disciples came and urged him, saying, "Send her away, for she keeps shouting after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." 26 He answered, "It is not fair to take the children's food and throw it to the dogs." 27 She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered her, "Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed instantly.

Notice that in Mark's version, the Jews (children) are fed first, indicating that the "dogs" (Gentiles) would eventually be fed, while Matthew's Jesus makes no allowance for this later "feeding." Also, Matthew's Jesus ignores the woman at first, and the disciples urge him to "send her away," details also lacking in Mark.

I don't see any indication that Jesus made allowance for a later Gentile "feeding". Maybe his laws allowed for graciousness to the Canaanite "dog" due to the threat Gentile majority[rome] might have posed. In other words, it was best that he play along with the "dog" for the time being to avoid any Gentile conflict that might cause injury to the Jewish community; for his law prohibited further association with people outside his Judaism. How then could a Jewish rabbi offer the Gentile "dog" the same thing that was covenanted to the Jews only? He could not. Jesus is not seen bringing Gentiles into his kingdom(Judaism). His purpose was to gather Jews back into the fold of Israel. To "save" the Jews, not save Gentiles.

dog-on · 08-23-2007, 06:09 AM

Mark is a comedy about a Jewish messianic preacher who gets abandoned by his own followers, and, in the end, is done in by his own people (the Jews).

So, in the story, yea, he was only preaching to the Jews...

storytime · 08-23-2007, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apatura_iris

During his first "sermon" after he reads the Haftorah in the synagogue (Lk 4) he tells the Jews there that no prophet is accepted in his own country, and compares himself to Elisha and Elijah who saved a gentile woman during a famine and healed Namaan, a gentile officer. Even though he was initially well received when he read the haftorah, once he made those statements about gentiles, the crowd went nuts and tried to throw him off a cliff.

Quote:

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. 22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Josephâ€™s son? 23 [he is initially well received] And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. 24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. [he insinuates he is here to save the gentiles, not the jews] 28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, 29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.[they change their minds and try to kill him]

Also, when Simon sees Jesus brought into the temple, he says:

Quote:

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, 31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; 32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

It's clear to me that, at least Jesus knew he would ultimately be rejected by the Jewish world and embraced by the gentile one. Unless it was all written in reverse to suit what transpired...

But he wasn't rejected by all Jews. Those Jews who believed his teaching, and became his followers[disciples] claimed him as their Lord and God. None were uncircumcised Gentiles.

Jesus changed no laws. Therefore it would have been impossible for him to accept any uncircumcised Gentiles as children of his god. However, Gentiles were able to convert to Judaism, which was the "way, truth and life" of Jesus.

"salvation is of the Jews".

John Kesler · 08-23-2007, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

I don't see any indication that Jesus made allowance for a later Gentile "feeding".

Referring to a "first" feeding doesn't make sense unless a second feeding follows. Also, look at how Mark adds a parenthetical remark at 7:19 about how Jesus cleansed all foods, a detail lacking in Matthew's version, but one that would have relevance when Gentiles joined the church.

And just to clarify what I wrote about Matthew. Although the story in question doesn't make reference to a Gentile mission, by the time Matthew was written, Gentiles had joined the church, and a more tolerant attitude is expressed in Matthew 8:5-13.

storytime · 08-23-2007, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Quote:

Originally Posted by storytime

I don't see any indication that Jesus made allowance for a later Gentile "feeding".

Referring to a "first" feeding doesn't make sense unless a second feeding follows. Also, look at how Mark adds a parenthetical remark at 7:19 about how Jesus cleansed all foods, a detail lacking in Matthew's version, but one that would have relevance when Gentiles joined the church.

And just to clarify what I wrote about Matthew. Although the story in question doesn't make reference to a Gentile mission, by the time Matthew was written, Gentiles had joined the church, and a more tolerant attitude is expressed in Matthew 8:5-13.

But there was no "first feeding". Only the acquistion to the pleading of one Canaanite woman. Jesus had said that it was not meant that the childrens bread - things belonging to the Jews, be given to the Gentiles. For the Gentiles were not children of God.

angelo · 08-24-2007, 04:31 AM

He was born a Jew, he was raised a Jew, he only learned the Jewish scripture. and was babtised a Jew. He claimed he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. So yes, he only preached to the Jews. [ if he existed at all ]

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08-23-2007, 06:09 AM	#45
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	Mark is a comedy about a Jewish messianic preacher who gets abandoned by his own followers, and, in the end, is done in by his own people (the Jews). So, in the story, yea, he was only preaching to the Jews...

08-24-2007, 04:31 AM	#49
angelo Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 5,706	He was born a Jew, he was raised a Jew, he only learned the Jewish scripture. and was babtised a Jew. He claimed he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. So yes, he only preached to the Jews. [ if he existed at all ]

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