goldenroad

Do you think Jesus wanted to be a revolutionary? No, if he had said things like slavery is wrong, don't pay taxes to Ceaser he would have been seen as an insurrectionist and would have been promptly crusified and his teachings wouldn't have been made. Also slavery was not what you think it was. Slaves were often prisoners of war or conquered nations (it wasn't racism). Also, slavery was a means to survive after going bankrupt and it was a way to pay off a debt.

Sauron

Yes, he even said so himself. He said he was not come to bring peace, but a sword. To set father against son. Jesus knew what he was saying was controversial.

1. A lot of people were saying "don't pay taxes to Caesar". Are you under the mistaken impression that they all got crucified for saying that?

2. Do you believe that all insurrectionists had their teachings erased?


No. That was indentured servitude. Slavery is not the same thing.

J842P

That makes it SO MUCH better.

Sven

I'm eager to know how people knew what exactly Jesus taught 300 years later, if not from the gospels. Sounds awfully like circular reasoning to me.

I think the Jesus like described in the gospels did not exist. So he hardly could want to be a revolutionary.

Johnny Skeptic

According to many Christians, the answer is from a reliable oral tradition.

Johnny Skeptic

You are quite naive. Jesus could have said that slavery is wrong when he was on the cross. In addition, God could have appeared in a cloud and said that slavery was wrong, and no one would have been able to hurt God. Further, noted skeptic Bible scholar Dr. Robert Price told me that in the first century, some Sophists and Stoics opposed slavery. Would you have opposed slavery if you had been a first century Christian? Probably not.

Consider the following Scriptures:

Leviticus 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Johnny: Now are you going to tell us that that was moral behavior?

Of course, the main issue here is about much more than slavery. Slavery is just one of many topics that fall under the topic of the character of God. The character of God is not logically defensible, and his failure to clearly oppose slavery is just one of a veritable plethora of examples that prove that he has poor character. God could be indicted, tried, and convicted as judged by his own standards if someone had enough power to do it.

Sven

Yes, that's the answer I expected. But we all know that "reliable oral tradition" is an oxymoron, no?

Doug Shaver

I didn't say there was.

I agree that Eusebius had some ideas. He was not the only one who did, though, and his ideas were not the only ones that mattered.

Right. Which means we don't really know very much, and therefore most of what we're tempted to say about who did what and why they did it will be mostly speculation.

That does not follow logically from anything you have said. It is arguably consistent with the evidence, but it is in no way implied by it.

Johnny Skeptic

Regardless of how influential Eusebius was regarding the formation of the New Testment Canon, it is logical to conclude that the writings that were chosen were chosen by men, not by God, and that there were disagreements over some of the writings that were included in the canon.

The entire Bible is confusing mess. No loving, rational God would have any part in inspiring the writing of such a book, or allowing such a book to be written. Only a very naive, gullible person would not know that if the Bible had been better written, mankind would have been much better off.

EarlOfLade

Such as?

When you are claiming they used "a very distinct criteria", you should always include the criteria since I don't know what it was. Do you?