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Old 06-10-2009, 05:31 AM   #71
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Neil Godfrey put it well in asking : Is it possible to hold both to Mark being a Pauline gospel (with its anti-Petrine position) and to John 21 being the original ending (with its pro-Petrine conclusion)? (on Vridar).
It looks to me like Neil Godfrey is begging the question.

His conclusion (that John 21 is not the original ending) is based on the premise that Mark is anti-Petrine. But that position is based on Mark without the proposed ending.
But that's the point I made to Ben. You can't argue for a hypothetical ending of Mark on the basis of what was deemed desirable in a later church theology and what arrived to our time as approved resurrectional scenarios. I read Mark and he seems as much anti-Petrine as Galatians. And then I read the 16:8 and it appears to be a full stop.

Now I can understand a Petrine reading that ending and not being happy with it and asserting against it first the positive-ID, and then the physicality of, Jesus resurrection. And you can bet that at a certain point in time this will appear as an argument by some divinity don asserting that Mark could not end at 16:8 because of grammar.

So eventually, we end up with four messed-up endings of Mark in which different people saw Jesus walking, talking, grabbing eyebulbs, cooking, eating tilapia and blessing those who don't need to stick their hands in rotting flesh to believe whetever bs the church declared to be canon.

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Jiri
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Old 06-10-2009, 09:30 AM   #72
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It looks to me like Neil Godfrey is begging the question.

His conclusion (that John 21 is not the original ending) is based on the premise that Mark is anti-Petrine. But that position is based on Mark without the proposed ending.
But that's the point I made to Ben. You can't argue for a hypothetical ending of Mark on the basis of what was deemed desirable in a later church theology and what arrived to our time as approved resurrectional scenarios. I read Mark and he seems as much anti-Petrine as Galatians. And then I read the 16:8 and it appears to be a full stop.
Ah. Now I see what you mean. I missed the part about 16:8. So it looks like we agree on this. I’m glad I posted.
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Old 06-10-2009, 09:45 AM   #73
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But if Mark 14:28 was not original then that might help explain why the disciples didn’t recognize him in John 21:4.
Their generally clueless nature seems sufficient explanation. Same for Peter appearing to ignore the Galilean promise to defend himself against a charge of cowardice. As usual, he misses the point.
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Old 06-10-2009, 10:19 AM   #74
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What about the Miraculous Draught of Fish?

Luke 5 places it before the crucifixion, but John 21 places it after the crucifixion.

If John 21 preserves the original ending of Mark, and if Luke contradicted Mark (that is - Mark with a John 21 ending), and if Luke gained popularity, then that would serve as a motive for a Luke fanatic to truncate Mark.

Right?
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Old 06-12-2009, 07:16 AM   #75
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Continuing with my detailed analysis of the category of Patristic and specifically "Matthew". Let's compare "Matthew" to LIE, er, LE:

Mark 16

Quote:
9 Now when he was risen early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons.

10 She went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, disbelieved.

12 And after these things he was manifested in another form unto two of them, as they walked, on their way into the country.

13 And they went away and told it unto the rest: neither believed they them.

14 And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven themselves as they sat at meat; and he upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them that had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed. Amen.
Verses:

Matthew 28

Quote:
9 And behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and took hold of his feet, and worshipped him.

10 Then saith Jesus unto them, Fear not: go tell my brethren that they depart into Galilee, and there shall they see me.

11 Now while they were going, behold, some of the guard came into the city, and told unto the chief priests all the things that were come to pass.

12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave much money unto the soldiers,

13 saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.

14 And if this come to the governor`s ears, we will persuade him, and rid you of care.

15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying was spread abroad among the Jews, [and continueth] until this day.

16 But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped [him]; but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
JW:
"Mark" to 16:8 (AE) sure looks like "Matthew's" source to 28:8. Most of the content and nouns are the same or at least similar and both have the strong emotion of fear/amazement for flavor. The only significant difference is the last line of each where "Matthew's" women run to tell as opposed to "Mark's" woman who run not to tell.

We have the following reasons to think that "Matthew", c. before Tatian/Irenaeus, did not have the LE in his copy of "Mark":

1) "Mark" in general is "Matthew's" source. There is little of the LE in "Matthew".

2) "Matthew" closely follows "Mark" to 16:8 (see 1).

3) "Matthew" flips the key assertion of 16:8, "ran and told no one", to "ran and told everyone", to change the expectation of what follows.

4) There's no substantially complete sentence (based on meaning) in the LE that corresponds to "Matthew's" ending.

5) There are insufficient theological reasons for "Matthew" to reject almost all of the LE.

6) "Matthew" would not have had any other known source for his ending.

Mr. Snapp presents the Patristic evidence informally but keeps repeating that the earliest Patristic evidence, Tatian/Irenaeus El-all, support the LE. "Matthew" begs to differ.

Everyone is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish.



Joseph

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Old 06-13-2009, 03:16 PM   #76
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Default Luukee! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do.

JW:
We have just seen that "Matthew" is the earliest Patristic witness for original ending of "Mark", testifying for AE due to closely following "Mark" to 16:8 and than basically ignoring 16:9-20. "Luke" likewise looks to have "Mark" as a source through 16:8. Let's test drive the new
Table
feature here:
Mark. Mark 16 Luke. Luke 24
16.1-8. The visit to the tomb. 24.1-9. The visit to the tomb.
16.1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the [mother] of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint him. 16.2 And very early on the first day of the week, they come to the tomb when the sun was risen. 24.1 But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came unto the tomb, bringing the spices which they had prepared.
16.3 And they were saying among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the tomb? 16.4 and looking up, they see that the stone is rolled back: for it was exceeding great. 24.2 And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb.
16.5 And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, arrayed in a white robe; and they were amazed. 24.3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 24.4 And it came to pass, while they were perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel:
16.6 And he saith unto them, Be not amazed: ye seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who hath been crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold, the place where they laid him! 24.5 and as they were affrighted and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? 24.6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, 24.7 saying that the Son of man must be delivered up into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 24.8 And they remembered his words,
16.7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, He goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you. -
16.8 And they went out, and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them: and they said nothing to any one; for they were afraid. 24.9 and returned from the tomb, and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest.

JW:
Note that "Luke" follows "Mark" closely to 16:5 although not as closely as "Matthew". More amazing though than the characters reactions here is that for 16:6 "Luke's" angels remind the women of Jesus' resurrection prediction. So per "Luke" it is the angels who remember what Jesus predicted and not the women, who have to be reminded. Let the Reader understand here that it is the Reader of "Mark", in this case "Luke", who remembers the prediction of Jesus because it is given at the Sub-text level. "Luke" understands that as "Mark" is written the characters at the Text level do not remember what Jesus predicted. Also note that "Luke" while following the rest of 16:1-8 fairly closely, has no reference to 16:7 (or 14:28). Yet more evidence for its forgery! 'Luke" than uses 16:8 as a source but flips it, just like "Matthew", from the women telling no one to the women telling everyone.

The great Irony is that "Luke" as supposed witness here for HJ is completely backwards. The post-resurrection story (only the most important story to Christianity) here has as a source of what the supposed historical witness did = what "Luke" wrote rather than "Luke's" source for what she wrote = historical witnesses here.

Now that we have established that "Luke's" source was "Mark" to 16:8 the next step is to look at the parallels between 16:9-20 and "Luke".

Bonus material for Solo. Note that "Matthew" and "Luke" both retain "Mark's" disbelief that Jesus was resurrected. Now the characters believe the angels (which they considered more believable) and the disbelief is transferred to what mere humans say.



Joseph

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Old 06-14-2009, 03:48 PM   #77
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Bonus material for Solo. Note that "Matthew" and "Luke" both retain "Mark's" disbelief that Jesus was resurrected. Now the characters believe the angels (which they considered more believable) and the disbelief is transferred to what mere humans say.
Hey, Joe, can you be sued for non-support of your own brain child ?

The first interesting thing about Luke's account is that he knows nothing about any promises Jesus made either himself or via sales associates about putting in an appearance in Galilee. Luke probably didn't see a point in the return trip since he knew the Spirit was going to descend wholesale on the brethern and consecrate the church in Jerusalem. So you can argue on the Mk 14:28-16:7 billing that Luke either didn't know it or (more likely - the mention of Galilee in the resurrection prediction in 24:6 displaces textually the zombie show up north) chose the "Fayyum" version as the cleaner style of the gospel.

Jiri
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:59 AM   #78
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Default James Snapp, Jr. Introductory post at CARM

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James Snapp, Jr. Introductory post at CARM


Quote:
Originally Posted by James Snapp Jr
Welcome, readers.

I am defending the view that Mark 16:9-20 was part of the Gospel of Mark when the Gospel of Mark was initially disseminated for church-use.


The current academic consensus that Mark 16:9-20 is a scribal accretion has been caused mainly by three things. First, it is due to widespread dependence upon the late Bruce Metzger’s Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament. Numerous commentators on this subject either repeat Metzger’s comments, or distort them, or simply tell their readers to read Metzger. However, Metzger omitted important details, and some of his statements are so imprecise as to be misleading. When modern-day commentators write, “Clement of Alexandria and Origen show no knowledge of these verses,” we are hearing Metzger’s echo. Where professors state that Mark ends at the end of 16:8 in Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, without stating that both of these manuscripts possess features indicating that their producers were aware of copies in which Mark did not end at the end of 16:8, we hear Metzger’s echo. When commentators claim that a number of manuscripts have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack Mark 16:9-20, we are, again, listening to Metzger’s echo. In light of this phenomenon, I invite each of you to adapt a familiar text-critical principle: commentators and scholars should be weighed, not counted.

If we could somehow force scholars not to begin and end their research by consulting Metzger, the current consensus about Mark 16:9-20 might dissolve. In 2007, J.K. Elliott, Dan Wallace, David Alan Black, and Maurice Robinson discussed this question at a conference moderated by Darrell Bock in 2007. Two of the four textual critics at that meeting – Black and Robinson – supported the authenticity of Mark 16:9-20. We should not allow a bracketed “A” in the UBS Greek New Testament (signifying that the text is “virtually certain”) to convince us that there is nothing to learn from a fresh investigation of the evidence.

Unfortunately, the second main contributor to the academic consensus that Mark 16:9-20 was absent from the Gospel of Mark when the text began its transmission-history is what I just mentioned: the casual conviction that there is nothing to learn by re-examining the evidence. To the independent researcher William Farmer, the “virtually certain” conclusion against 16:9-20 did not seem certain at all. Even in cases where independent researchers such as Michael Holmes have concluded that Mark 16:9-20 is non-original, they have affirmed the passage’s antiquity, popularity, and, often, its canonicity. But relatively few scholars have independently surveyed the evidence. As a result, errors have been allowed to spread, contributing to a cardboard consensus. Errors about patristic evidence, Ethiopic evidence, Georgian evidence, Arabic evidence, Sahidic evidence, lectionary-evidence, and Greek manuscript-evidence have been multiplied and magnified, in the service of the view that Mark 16:9-20 is inauthentic.

Consider one example: Dr. Norman Geisler wrote that Mark 16:9-20 is lacking in many of the oldest and most reliable Greek manuscripts, and in important Ethiopic manuscripts, and that Eusebius reveals no knowledge of these verses, and that many manuscripts mark the passage to indicate that it is spurious. Won’t everyone who believes him conclude that Mark 16:9-20 is inauthentic? But evidence-investigators will discover that only two early Greek manuscripts conclude Mark at the end of 16:8, and that each has an abnormal feature there. They will discover that no Ethiopic manuscripts of Mark end with 16:8. They will discover that Eusebius knew the passage. And they will discover that less than 2% of all Greek copies of Mark are known to have special marks by the passage, and that in several of these marked copies, annotations defend the passage, stating that although in some copies the Gospel end with verse 8, the rest is found in most copies, or in the ancient copies.

The third main factor driving the view that Mark 16:9-20 is a scribal accretion is a false assumption about the authorship of the Gospel of Mark. This is where the analysis by Metzger falls farthest short. Metzger’s comments indicate that he assumed that the Gospel of Mark had a single author, and that anything not written by that individual must not be original. However, such an assumption is not in play in textual criticism. As Kurt and Barbara Aland have written, “The competence of New Testament textual criticism is restricted to the state of the New Testament from the moment it began its literary history through transcription for distribution. All events prior to this are beyond its scope.” What that means, for our present subject, is that if Mark 16:9-20 was present in the autograph from which the first copies of the Gospel of Mark were made, then the question of the authorship of these 12 verses is superfluous. What matters is simply the presence or absence of these 12 verses.

Production-criticism, or “higher criticism,” may show or suggest that different book-components -- in Genesis or Zechariah or John or Second Corinthians – were written by different authors or added by different editors. But this information pertains to the text’s production-stage. Only after the production-stage is over can the text validly be the subject of textual criticism. And if the production-stage of the Gospel of Mark did not end (and the transmission-stage begin) until after 16:9-20 was attached, then 16:9-20 qualifies as part of the original text.

The theory which I hope you will accept as the theory which best accounts for the external and internal evidence may be summarized as follows: Mark never finished his Gospel-account. The production of Mark’s Gospel was continued by colleagues of Mark in Rome after his departure; instead of adding words of their own, they attached a short, already-existing Marcan composition about Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances. This material, now known as Mark 16:9-20, was rejected by an overly meticulous second-century copyist, who may have preferred instead to use John 21 as the continuation and conclusion of Mark’s narrative.

Yours in Christ,

James Snapp, Jr.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:50 AM   #79
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Default Joseph Wallack Introductory post at CARM

JW:
Joseph Wallack Introductory post at CARM

Dedicated to רמב"ן


Prologue

First of all I would like to thank CARM for agreeing to host this debate. I am going to say things which will be critical of Christianity so I would like it to be known that as a member of the loyal opposition I consider the United States, while not perfect, to be the greatest country the world has ever known. As a non-Christian I have to acknowledge that while the United Sates has an effective separation of ChurchandState it still consists primarily of Christians and therefore Christianity has a significant influence on its behavior. The United States reflects many admirable qualities of Christianity. Preference for peace, sympathy towards outsiders and personal and collective sacrifice. You also have to admire its great commercial success. That being said, on to the debate.

The key to winning a debate of course is to pick the winning side. The problem is knowing which side to pick. Here the debate is whether Mark 16:9-20 is original. I pick “not”.


Introduction

The problem:

Is Mark 16:9-20 original?


History of the problem:

The early centuries of Christianity identify the problem and the heart of this debate will be evaluating evidence from the earlier centuries. For most of the history of Christianity, Christian Bible scholars have asserted that 16:9-20 is original. In the last few centuries Christian Bible scholarship has once again identified the issue as a problem. The majority opinion has now flipped to 16:9-20 not being original.


Opinion of modern Bible scholarship:

The late, great Bruce Metzger, probably considered the greatest textual critic of all time by modern Bible scholarship, concludes here:

bible-researcher.com/endmark.html

that Mark 16:9-20 is not original. Modern Bible scholarship generally accepts Metzger’s opinion here. The very much still alive Bart Ehrman, Metzger’s protégé and I have faith, the second greatest textual critic of all time in the opinion of modern Bible scholarship, (although much more contested than Metzger), comes on even stronger (perhaps too strong) and writes in Misquoting Jesus, page 67 (regarding 16:9-20), “The reasons for taking them to be an addition are solid, almost indisputable.” Metzger and Ehrman together are like the א and B of textual critics.


Summary of Metzger’s analysis:

Metzger presents his analysis informally by professional standards. He uses two categories of evidence, External and Internal. External evidence is sub-divided as follows:
Manuscript

Patristic

Scribal
Internal evidence is sub-divided as follows:
Vocabulary

Style

Continuity

Metzger’s conclusion for 16:9-20:

Quote:
(3) The traditional ending of Mark, so familiar through the AV and other translations of the Textus Receptus, is present in the vast number of witnesses, including A C D K W X Δ Θ Π Ψ 099 0112 f 13 28 33 al. The earliest patristic witnesses to part or all of the long ending are Irenaeus and the Diatessaron. It is not certain whether Justin Martyr was acquainted with the passage; in his Apology (i.45) he includes five words that occur, in a different sequence, in ver. 20. (του λογου του ισχυρου ον απο ιερουσαλημ οι αποστολοι αυτου εξελθοντες πανταχου εκηρυξαν).


The longer ending (3), though current in a variety of witnesses, some of them ancient, must also be judged by internal evidence to be secondary. (a) The vocabulary and style of verses 9-20 are non-Markan. (e.g. απιστεω, βλαπτω, βεβαιοω, επακολουθεω, θεαομαι, μετα ταυτα, πορευομαι, συνεργεω, υστερον are found nowhere else in Mark; and θανασιμον and τοις μετ αυτου γενομενοις, as designations of the disciples, occur only here in the New Testament). (b) The connection between ver. 8 and verses 9-20 is so awkward that it is difficult to believe that the evangelist intended the section to be a continuation of the Gospel. Thus, the subject of ver. 8 is the women, whereas Jesus is the presumed subject in ver. 9; in ver. 9 Mary Magdalene is identified even though she has been mentioned only a few lines before (15.47 and 16.1); the other women of verses 1-8 are now forgotten; the use of αναστας δε and the position of πρωτον are appropriate at the beginning of a comprehensive narrative, but they are ill-suited in a continuation of verses 1-8. In short, all these features indicate that the section was added by someone who knew a form of Mark that ended abruptly with ver. 8 and who wished to supply a more appropriate conclusion. In view of the inconcinnities between verses 1-8 and 9-20, it is unlikely that the long ending was composed ad hoc to fill up an obvious gap; it is more likely that the section was excerpted from another document, dating perhaps from the first half of the second century.

Summary of Metzger’s conclusion:

Metzger organizes and analyzes the evidence by conclusion. He than uses the process of elimination to determine the likely original ending and thereby eliminates 16:9-20 for reasons which I have summarized next:
External – 16:9-20 can not be eliminated based on External evidence.

Internal – Eliminates 16:9-20 as original due to all sub-categories of Internal evidence being against it:
Vocabulary – non Markan

Style – non Markan

Continuity – the beginning of 16:9-20 does not logically flow from the ending of 16:1-8.

Significance of Metzger’s opinion for purposes of this debate:

The opinion here of modern Bible scholarship is only the starting point for this debate as my opponent and I agree that direct examination of the evidence is a more important category of evidence than authority. This does give me a significant advantage though over my opponent going into the debate as Authority will still be a category of evidence and my opponent has graciously given me the position of arguing that 16:9-20 is not original while authority goes beyond that asserting that 16:8 is the original ending.


The significance of this debate

The issue of where “Mark” originally ended is important because without 16:9-20 as explicit evidence for historical witness to a resurrected Jesus, the best potential Christian evidence for such historical witness may go back to Paul who as far as we know did not know the historical Jesus.
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Old 06-16-2009, 07:55 AM   #80
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JW:
James Snapp, Jr. Introductory post at CARM


Quote:
Originally Posted by James Snapp Jr
Welcome, readers.



The theory which I hope you will accept as the theory which best accounts for the external and internal evidence may be summarized as follows: Mark never finished his Gospel-account. The production of Mark’s Gospel was continued by colleagues of Mark in Rome after his departure; instead of adding words of their own, they attached a short, already-existing Marcan composition about Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances. This material, now known as Mark 16:9-20, was rejected by an overly meticulous second-century copyist, who may have preferred instead to use John 21 as the continuation and conclusion of Mark’s narrative.

Yours in Christ,

James Snapp, Jr.
16:8, as an ending, fits perfectly.

An ironic ending to a story that is simply filled with ironies.

This point, in itself, debunks any possibility that Mark did not "finish" his gospel.

(It may also have explained, to the early Christians, why no one ever heard of this savior prior to Paul's revelations...)
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