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06-10-2009, 05:31 AM | #71 | ||
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Now I can understand a Petrine reading that ending and not being happy with it and asserting against it first the positive-ID, and then the physicality of, Jesus resurrection. And you can bet that at a certain point in time this will appear as an argument by some divinity don asserting that Mark could not end at 16:8 because of grammar. So eventually, we end up with four messed-up endings of Mark in which different people saw Jesus walking, talking, grabbing eyebulbs, cooking, eating tilapia and blessing those who don't need to stick their hands in rotting flesh to believe whetever bs the church declared to be canon. Regards, Jiri |
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06-10-2009, 09:30 AM | #72 | |
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06-10-2009, 09:45 AM | #73 |
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Their generally clueless nature seems sufficient explanation. Same for Peter appearing to ignore the Galilean promise to defend himself against a charge of cowardice. As usual, he misses the point.
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06-10-2009, 10:19 AM | #74 |
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What about the Miraculous Draught of Fish?
Luke 5 places it before the crucifixion, but John 21 places it after the crucifixion. If John 21 preserves the original ending of Mark, and if Luke contradicted Mark (that is - Mark with a John 21 ending), and if Luke gained popularity, then that would serve as a motive for a Luke fanatic to truncate Mark. Right? |
06-12-2009, 07:16 AM | #75 | ||
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JW:
Continuing with my detailed analysis of the category of Patristic and specifically "Matthew". Let's compare "Matthew" to LIE, er, LE: Mark 16 Quote:
Matthew 28 Quote:
"Mark" to 16:8 (AE) sure looks like "Matthew's" source to 28:8. Most of the content and nouns are the same or at least similar and both have the strong emotion of fear/amazement for flavor. The only significant difference is the last line of each where "Matthew's" women run to tell as opposed to "Mark's" woman who run not to tell. We have the following reasons to think that "Matthew", c. before Tatian/Irenaeus, did not have the LE in his copy of "Mark": 1) "Mark" in general is "Matthew's" source. There is little of the LE in "Matthew". 2) "Matthew" closely follows "Mark" to 16:8 (see 1). 3) "Matthew" flips the key assertion of 16:8, "ran and told no one", to "ran and told everyone", to change the expectation of what follows. 4) There's no substantially complete sentence (based on meaning) in the LE that corresponds to "Matthew's" ending. 5) There are insufficient theological reasons for "Matthew" to reject almost all of the LE. 6) "Matthew" would not have had any other known source for his ending. Mr. Snapp presents the Patristic evidence informally but keeps repeating that the earliest Patristic evidence, Tatian/Irenaeus El-all, support the LE. "Matthew" begs to differ. Everyone is welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish. Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
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06-13-2009, 03:16 PM | #76 | |||||||||||||||||
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Luukee! Ya Got Sum Splainin Ta Do.
JW:
We have just seen that "Matthew" is the earliest Patristic witness for original ending of "Mark", testifying for AE due to closely following "Mark" to 16:8 and than basically ignoring 16:9-20. "Luke" likewise looks to have "Mark" as a source through 16:8. Let's test drive the new
JW: Note that "Luke" follows "Mark" closely to 16:5 although not as closely as "Matthew". More amazing though than the characters reactions here is that for 16:6 "Luke's" angels remind the women of Jesus' resurrection prediction. So per "Luke" it is the angels who remember what Jesus predicted and not the women, who have to be reminded. Let the Reader understand here that it is the Reader of "Mark", in this case "Luke", who remembers the prediction of Jesus because it is given at the Sub-text level. "Luke" understands that as "Mark" is written the characters at the Text level do not remember what Jesus predicted. Also note that "Luke" while following the rest of 16:1-8 fairly closely, has no reference to 16:7 (or 14:28). Yet more evidence for its forgery! 'Luke" than uses 16:8 as a source but flips it, just like "Matthew", from the women telling no one to the women telling everyone. The great Irony is that "Luke" as supposed witness here for HJ is completely backwards. The post-resurrection story (only the most important story to Christianity) here has as a source of what the supposed historical witness did = what "Luke" wrote rather than "Luke's" source for what she wrote = historical witnesses here. Now that we have established that "Luke's" source was "Mark" to 16:8 the next step is to look at the parallels between 16:9-20 and "Luke". Bonus material for Solo. Note that "Matthew" and "Luke" both retain "Mark's" disbelief that Jesus was resurrected. Now the characters believe the angels (which they considered more believable) and the disbelief is transferred to what mere humans say. Joseph http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page |
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06-14-2009, 03:48 PM | #77 | |
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The first interesting thing about Luke's account is that he knows nothing about any promises Jesus made either himself or via sales associates about putting in an appearance in Galilee. Luke probably didn't see a point in the return trip since he knew the Spirit was going to descend wholesale on the brethern and consecrate the church in Jerusalem. So you can argue on the Mk 14:28-16:7 billing that Luke either didn't know it or (more likely - the mention of Galilee in the resurrection prediction in 24:6 displaces textually the zombie show up north) chose the "Fayyum" version as the cleaner style of the gospel. Jiri |
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06-15-2009, 09:59 AM | #78 | |
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James Snapp, Jr. Introductory post at CARM
JW:
James Snapp, Jr. Introductory post at CARM Quote:
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06-16-2009, 05:50 AM | #79 | |
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Joseph Wallack Introductory post at CARM
JW:
Joseph Wallack Introductory post at CARM Dedicated to רמב"ן Prologue First of all I would like to thank CARM for agreeing to host this debate. I am going to say things which will be critical of Christianity so I would like it to be known that as a member of the loyal opposition I consider the United States, while not perfect, to be the greatest country the world has ever known. As a non-Christian I have to acknowledge that while the United Sates has an effective separation of ChurchandState it still consists primarily of Christians and therefore Christianity has a significant influence on its behavior. The United States reflects many admirable qualities of Christianity. Preference for peace, sympathy towards outsiders and personal and collective sacrifice. You also have to admire its great commercial success. That being said, on to the debate. The key to winning a debate of course is to pick the winning side. The problem is knowing which side to pick. Here the debate is whether Mark 16:9-20 is original. I pick “not”. Introduction The problem: Is Mark 16:9-20 original? History of the problem: The early centuries of Christianity identify the problem and the heart of this debate will be evaluating evidence from the earlier centuries. For most of the history of Christianity, Christian Bible scholars have asserted that 16:9-20 is original. In the last few centuries Christian Bible scholarship has once again identified the issue as a problem. The majority opinion has now flipped to 16:9-20 not being original. Opinion of modern Bible scholarship: The late, great Bruce Metzger, probably considered the greatest textual critic of all time by modern Bible scholarship, concludes here: bible-researcher.com/endmark.html that Mark 16:9-20 is not original. Modern Bible scholarship generally accepts Metzger’s opinion here. The very much still alive Bart Ehrman, Metzger’s protégé and I have faith, the second greatest textual critic of all time in the opinion of modern Bible scholarship, (although much more contested than Metzger), comes on even stronger (perhaps too strong) and writes in Misquoting Jesus, page 67 (regarding 16:9-20), “The reasons for taking them to be an addition are solid, almost indisputable.” Metzger and Ehrman together are like the א and B of textual critics. Summary of Metzger’s analysis: Metzger presents his analysis informally by professional standards. He uses two categories of evidence, External and Internal. External evidence is sub-divided as follows: ManuscriptInternal evidence is sub-divided as follows: VocabularyMetzger’s conclusion for 16:9-20: Quote:
Summary of Metzger’s conclusion: Metzger organizes and analyzes the evidence by conclusion. He than uses the process of elimination to determine the likely original ending and thereby eliminates 16:9-20 for reasons which I have summarized next: External – 16:9-20 can not be eliminated based on External evidence.Significance of Metzger’s opinion for purposes of this debate: The opinion here of modern Bible scholarship is only the starting point for this debate as my opponent and I agree that direct examination of the evidence is a more important category of evidence than authority. This does give me a significant advantage though over my opponent going into the debate as Authority will still be a category of evidence and my opponent has graciously given me the position of arguing that 16:9-20 is not original while authority goes beyond that asserting that 16:8 is the original ending. The significance of this debate The issue of where “Mark” originally ended is important because without 16:9-20 as explicit evidence for historical witness to a resurrected Jesus, the best potential Christian evidence for such historical witness may go back to Paul who as far as we know did not know the historical Jesus. |
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06-16-2009, 07:55 AM | #80 | ||
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An ironic ending to a story that is simply filled with ironies. This point, in itself, debunks any possibility that Mark did not "finish" his gospel. (It may also have explained, to the early Christians, why no one ever heard of this savior prior to Paul's revelations...) |
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