Rational BAC

Whelp I guess I was asking for that one.------

I can't imagine that happening anywhere outside of the boonies but I guess it is possible.

If so---then I still think it is a 9-11 fad. I have not recited the Pledge anywhere at any time since I was in grade school 50 years ago. And even then I never said "under God".
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I work at various auto auctions in my semi retirement. And one of them is super gung ho patriotic. Flags of the USA flying everywhere. Before the start of the auction ----a young lady with a very beautiful voice actually sings the "Star Spangled Banner"

The result-------most people do not even notice and go about their business. Some old farts like me actually do stop what they are doing and face one of the many gigantic flags. Nobody sings along. One or two put their hands over their hearts. (Not me though -------seems like a modified Nazi salute to me and always has---I think that part is disgusting--but to each his own)

And of course saying the Pledge would be a serious laugher.

And that is the real state of jingoism and nationalism and overt religion in this nation-----at least in the developed parts.

Give it a few years and absolutely nobody will give a shit about any of that stuff. And we will go back to normal American materialistic life.

Starboy

quote:
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In his morning prayer, Ogilvie said, "There is no separation between God and State ... In gratitude, we declare our motto: 'In God we trust' ... It is with reverence that, in a moment, we will respect our commitment to you in the Pledge of Allegiance. Help us to savor those words ... May we never lose our sense of awe and wonder over the privilege of living in this religiously free country ... As we declare our convictions, we affirm that patriotism, we affirm that we are one Senate united under you, in God we trust."
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An exellent example of how Christians see freedom of religion. We have religious freedom as long as it is the Christian religion. They are oblivious of any other way to be.

Starboy

Rational BAC

To continue a bit I have to admit that ceremonies before even a very patriotic auto auction is not the same as a public government meeting of some kind or other.


Since I can't ever remember actually going to such a thing I have to admit that Rhea may have some kind of point there.

However if I did go to an official government meeting of any kind and they decided to recite the Pledge-------Well I would recite it the way I always have--the way I learned it. Without "under God" in it.

(Because it upsets seriously the rhythmic flow of the recital and because I never can remember where to stick "under God" in there anyway (I think sticking it on the end of the Pledge works best)

Actually If I ever was required to recite the Pledge, ---and assuming that a Pledge is like a very personal statement of an oath and at all times should be personally truthful----

---I would change indivisible to divisible because I believe in secession, I would leave out the flag part as at best superfluous and at worst iconic and I would say at the end "liberty justice and equality for all" Not absolutely sure about the Republic part--would probably substitute "Representative democracy with minority rights" (getting a little wordy there though)

And of course I would never remember to stick "under God" in there except as an afterthought if I happened to even remember that "tacked on" part.

Do you think anyone would notice or really give a shit?? I don't think so.

Starboy

You need to get out more.

Starboy

Biff the unclean

This is an interesting thread, as are the ones related to it in MF&P

The Atheists are saying that the Liberal Christians claim high ideals but drop their ideals when faced by Fundis. Then stand around as though nothing is wrong.

In return the Liberal Christians give urls of web sites that claim to have high ideals. Then, when presented with problems created by the Fundis, they say nothing is wrong. La, la, la, nothing is happening. I don't even say the Pledge of Allegiance anyway.

In MF&P they are in the midst of explaining why suspending their morals is the moral thing for them to do.

The case seems to be pretty much closed. I hope there are some lurkers who learned something from this exercise.

Rational BAC

You are usually very specific Biff.

The case is closed in what way?

You are saying I won?

Rhea

Yes, I think he is saying that. He is saying that you have convinced us that you have high ideals, but when faced by the fundies, you pretend nothing is wrong.

I'm saying that you have convinced me that you 1) do not care to address the statements showing that your religion promotes the stand you refuse to take, and that you further 2) do not care to address the supporting data that shows the "big issues" that you profess to care about are being undermined by your inability to see the effect of the small issues.

Biff the unclean

I was specific. I said that you LOST BIG TIME by proving the case against you in your very blurbs. When some one tells you that you turn a blind eye to a problem you do not win by saying "Problem? What problem. I don't see any problem."

Postcard73

RBAC- I have found this discussion quite interesting, but I really think some of your claims are far too optimistic. I have lived in the SE USA my entire life ('cept for a few months in Montana with my brother), and I don't see any difference in the way things were done around here before and after 9-11. Religion was carried to absurd lengths before the attacks, and that will continue to be the case as far as I can tell. While it would be great to see a candidate say "None of your business" to the religion question, I think it is rather telling that no major candidates actually do give that answer...

Roanoke may not be lower Manhattan, but with a metro population of 250,000 I would hesitate to call it the boonies. Nonetheless, I have seen billboards in downtown complete with the phone number to the White House urging people to pressure Bush to keep Israel intact and not give the Palestinians a separate country because it violates God's covenant with his chosen people. I can't go 10' without seeing xian bumper stickers and Jesus fish on cars. Religion is everywhere around here, and it is anything but a private, personal issue. From a political perspective, the goal of fundamental xianity is to make the USA a fundamental xian theocracy, and this goal will not stop being a threat to non-fundies as long as the people who support it are motivated and have money. It appears to me that we are a very long time from reaching that point...

I am still not ready to lay all the blame at the feet of liberal xians because most of the people I know are too apathetic to take a stand regardless of ideological persuasion. I do think you are mistaken on your perception of the role of religion in America today...

the_cave

But this is just evidence that where you live, people will have to provide evidence of their religion--by either reciting the "under God" portion of the pledge or not. You haven't provided evidence that this is any sort of litmus test, or that there would be negative consequences of leaving that phrase out. For all I know, there would be, but so far I haven't seen any evidence for it. I'm not saying it's an acceptible practice, I just don't yet see that it's a requirement for office.