Johnny Skeptic

Please quote where Clement says that most of the Christians who Nero killed died as martyrs.

But not a consensus of secular historians which you originally said is that case. You originally said that there is somewhat of a consensus of Christian and secular historians who agree with you. That means a consensus of Christian historians, and a separate consensus of secular historians. How many secular historians have you produced who claim that the majority of Christians who Nero persecuted died as martyrs?

Champion

Now you are the one moving the goal posts. I haven't been arguing that the Christians killed under Nero died as martyrs. I've been arguing that Nero killed alot of Christians following the Great Fire of Rome. I have no idea whether or not Nero really cared about how deeply held their religious convictions were. Clement's letter was written in 97 CE and says that to the martyrs Peter and Paul "should be added a great multitude of the elect, who, having through envy endured many indignities and tortures, furnished us with a most excellent example."

I have since then said many times that there is quite alot more disagreement over this issue than I realized. I have posted around 12 or 13 sources who attest to Nero killing alot of Christians. The exact circumstances concerning how those Christians were picked and if they were given a chance to recant is lost. I doubt Nero really cared that much about the strength of the victims religious convictions.

schilling.klaus

no, it's a mid to late second century patchwork
fraudulently assigned to that fictional Clement of Rome
only later by the churchfathers.

Klaus Schilling

Johnny Skeptic

No I didn't. Although I did discuss what Andrew Criddle said about large numbers of Christians being persecuted by Nero, that was my secondary argument. My primary argumment was my first argument, which was as follows:

It was that claim by rhutchin that was my main reason for starting this thread, and the claim had to do with martyrdom, not just with how many Christians were persecuted. You ought to know that that fundie sacred cow depends not only upon large numbers of Christians being persecuted, but also upon most of them dying as martyrs.

Champion

If that is where this discussion stands, then I'm not going to claim my sources say something they don't. The sources I posted support Tacitus' contention that Christians were selected by Nero as scapegoats for the Great Fire of Rome. Church tradition is a little more specific on the details and one can infer from various historical sites the means and methods Nero employed, but beyond what I already said, the issue is to gray to make a definitive statement. Out of curiousity, how do you define martyrs? Certainly some of them were probably martyred, others were probably just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Johnny Skeptic

I define martyrs as 1) people who are given a given a chance to recant their beliefs, but refuse to do so, or 2) people who are killed without being asked whether or not they want to recant their beliefs. If you had paid better attention to the opening post, you would not have wasted a lot of your time.
As it was, I did not waste my time because I got some good practice for when I debate fundies again regarding this issue. Thanks very much for helping me develop better arguments.

Champion

I suppose that ends our charming little discussion.

Johnny Skeptic

That is fine. As I said, "If you had paid better attention to the opening post, you would not have wasted a lot of your time. As it was, I did not waste my time because I got some good practice for when I debate fundies again regarding this issue. Thanks very much for helping me develop better arguments."