Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Metacrock · 01-19-2005, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johntheapostate

You seem unduly harsh on these "heretics" who in my opinion were taking no more liberties with the concept of Christianity than Christianity had with Judaism

I am not harsh with all Gnostics. I think a lot of people labaled as "Gnostic" were probalby just in dutch with the chruch power structure. But some Gnostics were scum. Epiphanius describes the cult he belonged to for a time and how they cooked and ate fetuses with pepper because they hated birth and life so. Felsh was evil, so why not eat some babbies? That's not to say some "orthodox" weren't just as bad in their own way.

Vorkosigan · 01-19-2005, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metacrock

John: I alway found it odd that the Jewish Jesus cult was still represented in Jerusalem in the Epistles of Paul and that he was able to travel there unmolested by his former allies. It seems to me that the "horrible" persecution by the Pharisees was really not very effective and may have been fiction for the most part.

WEll do you think they had wanted posters? They had no way of distributing his likeness. It was probably a lot easier to get away form people back then.

As Paul himself notes in Gal 1:

21
Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
22
And I was unknown personally to the churches of Judea that are in Christ;
23
they only kept hearing that "the one who once was persecuting us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."
24
So they glorified God because of me.

Metacrock · 01-19-2005, 04:29 AM

I just want to clerify something. I said that paul claims to be a student of Gamaliel. I know there is no stamtent in a Pauline letter where he says that. I meant through Luke, through Acts. I think ti's pretty likely he told Luke that and that's how Luke knew it.

sorry to be unclear.

Vorkosigan · 01-19-2005, 04:29 AM

Quote:

you want to talk about that Maccoby guy, why not Edersheim? Edersheim was trianed as a Rabbi, he was a linguistic genius, he was a professor at Oxford and cambridge and he shows how all the Messianich expectations in the NT are found in the Talmud.

....and he died over a century ago. Interested readers can see info about him here. His books are also online on the book page at ECW. He converted to Christianity quite young and became a missionary. It's not surprising that he found Jesus everywhere in the Tanakh.

Meanwhile, those of us more up to speed on recent scholarship, will return to "that Maccoby guy."

Vorkosigan

Metacrock · 01-19-2005, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

As Paul himself notes in Gal 1:

21
Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
22
And I was unknown personally to the churches of Judea that are in Christ;
23
they only kept hearing that "the one who once was persecuting us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."
24
So they glorified God because of me.

hey that doesnt' prove that he was known by site to the Jews who where persecuting him.

Vorkosigan · 01-19-2005, 04:33 AM

No kidding, Meta. It explains that Paul wasn't known by sight to them; he specifically says that.

It's very pat, how this comment neatly explains how he was able to waft in and out of the place although he was a persecutor of the Christians. Almost like it was invented to account for this problem.

Vorkosigan

Metacrock · 01-19-2005, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

....and he died over a century ago. Interested readers can see info about him here. His books are also online on the book page at ECW. He converted to Christianity quite young and became a missionary. It's not surprising that he found Jesus everywhere in the Tanakh.

Meanwhile, those of us more up to speed on recent scholarship, will return to "that Maccoby guy."

Vorkosigan

So what if he died 100 years ago? did the Talmud change in that time? I bet Edersheim was better trained than Mccoby.

whos says he's good? who says he's the big shot? He's not recognized by scholars. <group insult deleted>

Metacrock · 01-19-2005, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

No kidding, Meta. It explains that Paul wasn't known by sight to them; he specifically says that.

It's very pat, how this comment neatly explains how he was able to waft in and out of the place although he was a persecutor of the Christians. Almost like it was invented to account for this problem.

Vorkosigan

I see. I assumed you were disagreeing with me. yes, right. You got something right, good going.

Vorkosigan · 01-19-2005, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metacrock

So what if he died 100 years ago? did the Talmud change in that time? I bet Edersheim was better trained than Mccoby.

whos says he's good? who says he's the big shot? He's not recognized by scholars. <insult deleted for consistency>

Sorry, Meta. I just can't respond to anything like this.

Atheos · 01-19-2005, 06:49 AM

I haven't read the entire thread yet but the OP seems reasonable and is something I had never been exposed to, nor had I considered.

While studying Hermeneutics in college I had been taught that when a Biblical writer interprets a scripture then that interpretation is to be considered correct above any other. Another similar rule, based on begging the question, was that "No two passages of scripture are to be interpreted in a way that is contradictory". Of course laws such as these are set up so as to force the reader to believe that he is somehow at fault if he sees a contradiction. Getting that mentality out of one's head is one of the first steps towards a more sane and rational look at scriptures for what they really are -- collections of writings of ancient and fallible men.

I just wanted to say "thanks" to johntheapostate for an compelling perspective I had never considered. Looking forward to reading the rest of the thread with interest.

-Atheos

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01-19-2005, 04:29 AM	#43
Metacrock Banned Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Dallas, Texas, USA Posts: 1,734	I just want to clerify something. I said that paul claims to be a student of Gamaliel. I know there is no stamtent in a Pauline letter where he says that. I meant through Luke, through Acts. I think ti's pretty likely he told Luke that and that's how Luke knew it. sorry to be unclear.

01-19-2005, 04:33 AM	#46
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	No kidding, Meta. It explains that Paul wasn't known by sight to them; he specifically says that. It's very pat, how this comment neatly explains how he was able to waft in and out of the place although he was a persecutor of the Christians. Almost like it was invented to account for this problem. Vorkosigan

01-19-2005, 06:49 AM	#50
Atheos Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Heart of the Bible Belt Posts: 5,807	I haven't read the entire thread yet but the OP seems reasonable and is something I had never been exposed to, nor had I considered. While studying Hermeneutics in college I had been taught that when a Biblical writer interprets a scripture then that interpretation is to be considered correct above any other. Another similar rule, based on begging the question, was that "No two passages of scripture are to be interpreted in a way that is contradictory". Of course laws such as these are set up so as to force the reader to believe that he is somehow at fault if he sees a contradiction. Getting that mentality out of one's head is one of the first steps towards a more sane and rational look at scriptures for what they really are -- collections of writings of ancient and fallible men. I just wanted to say "thanks" to johntheapostate for an compelling perspective I had never considered. Looking forward to reading the rest of the thread with interest. -Atheos

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