Malachi151

Let's see, totally different groups of people, separated by 2,000 years, in totally different situations. Yeah, good point. Let's see, first off, "Jesus" was not an immediate threat to anyone, while Kristallnacht was a riot of violence against an entire community where lives were in immediate danger.

No Robots

Neither Brown nor Smith deny the essential truth of a hearing before Jewish authorities. Here (or via: amazon.co.uk) is Brown:

Some commentators contend that the events placed by Mark/Matt between the arrest and the crucifixion are too crowded to have happened in one night. Yet does not rearranging that material over a longer period of time undo the intention of the evangelists to describe the whole procedure as hasty and crowded because the authorities wanted to have Jesus executed without any chance that the people would react and thus cause a disturbance (Mark 14:2; Matt. 26:5)?--p. 8-9

Here is Smith:

Jesus had to be arrested before Passover. The only reason temple authorities could detain him without formal indictment was to prevent him from provoking a riot during the week-long festival (Mark 14:2). No Jewish court would agree to imprison a fellow Jew once the celebration of God's liberation of every Israelite from bondage had begun. In the few days remaining, a legal case against Jesus could not be prosecuted, since the temple hierarchy was involved in preparations for the massive lamb sacrifice on the fourteenth of Nisan. Also, the annual commemoration of all of Israel being spared from the "angel of death"---which is what "Passover" was about in the first place (Exod 12)---precluded even considering executing Jesus during it. Thirty years later, Pharisees protested the execution of Jesus' brother James for Torah-violations at a time other than Passover (see p. 2). So, they would not have approved Jesus' arrest, if there was any plan to execute him either before or during the Passover festival. The gospels show that the high priest, Yosef Kayafa (Caiaphas)---a wealthy Sadducee who collaborated with the Romans to maintain civil order---sent his own "slave" to arrest Jesus (Mark 14:47; John 18:10). Other Jews who went along with this order by the top Judean executive (including Judas Iscariot), probably did so simply because they thought it best to get Jesus off the streets.

Malachi151

Talk about being blinded by faith and ad hoc reasoning! Its quite amusing that Smith contorts all around, making up reasons here, while staring the obvious facts straight in the face, but he can't see them because he can only consider the gospel story as history.

AHHH!! Does he not see that he just completely outlined the symbolic meaning of the crucifixion! He just made the case for allegorical crucifixion story without even knowing it!

No Robots

Hey, they're Vorkosigan's sources, man. I'm just quoting them.

spin

I cited the source in a link, M. Sanhedrin ch.4.

Practising Jews' adherence to their laws already cited.

Don't change the subject. We are dealing with practising Jews based on the temple cultus, not Hellenist Jews.

Further irrelevance.

There were more complex dietary rules. But stop changing the subject. We are dealing with practising Jews based on the temple cultus.

You really can't stay focused on the temple cultus, can you? You know high priest, sacrifices, temple purity, following strict codes of conduct. It excludes all your tangents over behaviour and changes of period.

You are just avoiding the issue with this series of smokescreens.

Accept the fact that Jews of the period were serious about their religion and stop trying to demean them.

andrewcriddle

One should note that there are very real uncertainties about how far Mishnah tractate Sanhedrin reflects actual practice before the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

The Mishnah in its present form dates to c 200 CE and it is difficult to determine which parts go back to the mid 1st century CE.

IIUC Neusner suggests that the fourth order of the Mishnah (Damages), of which tractate Sanhedrin is a part, may have less roots in the 1st century CE than the other five divisions.

Andrew Criddle

wiccan windwalker

Thank You brother Andrew.... Spin here seems to think he has the academic credentials to speak ex cathedra and cite himself as authority! And of course Spin seems to think that only he and his coven here have the right to draw inferences from the gospel accounts.

First, extralegal actions by decision making groups is the norm not the exception if one cares to study game theory (particularly uncertainty theory).....this is human nature, and I see no reason why the Sanhedrin would not be capable of a midnight "night rider" session to take care of some unpleasant business that they wanted hushed up......the Jews convened war councils late at night and there was ongoing tension among the Pharisees and Sadducees in a power struggle in first century palestine. The mathematical value of Spins' wild assed conjecture that the Sanhedrin could not possibly have met in one night session is utter bullshit! i.e. "zero"

According to Jewish tradition, the Sanhedrin did in fact meet at night on the 9th of Av as Roman armies were prepering to march on Jerusalem!

So Spin, kindly go back and do some real research this time before you embarass yourself again.

rlogan

This is a dodge of my question to Gamera:


My question, again, is how you get this from Pauline texts , as is asserted above.

The answer is not that some book speculates that there was an oral tradition preceding the gospels.

The answer must come from quoting Pauline text.


Neither you nor Gamera has answered the question.

No Robots

Gerhardsson's book has two sections on Paul (complete table of contents available here):

Part 1
VI. Paul as bearer of tradition
VII. Paul and the Jesus tradition

You can read these sections here.

rlogan

If there was something responsive, then quote it or articulate the salient points.

I can surmise there are none given your repeated attempts to avoid it.


"It's in there somewhere" is not a discussion. It is evasion.