The Evil One

Obviously it would be a lot easier if I just accepted that what you said was right, but that would be missing the point somewhat, wouldn't it.



Please write 100 times: Catholics are Christians.

Trying to pretend they're not does your case no favours.

Do your Catholic acquaintances not object when you try to explain to them that they're not Christians?



And I know a number of Protestants who don't read the Bible. So what? Are you trying to add "reads the Bible" to the definition of a Christian? That doesn't make the definition simpler, it makes it more complicated!



You have a conception of what "mainstream Christianity" which is rather strange, if you consider Catholics to be outside the mainstream. Catholics outnumber every other sort of Christian put together.



Oddly enough, I haven't paraphrased the views above from Christians I know, but from Christian thinkers in history or public Christian figures around the world. But you've dodged the issue: do you agree or disagree that there are Christians on this planet who hold these views? And if you agree, how can you possibly maintain that the only people who are actually Christians are those who sincerely believe as you believe?



One billion Christians believe salvation comes by taking sacraments whilst in communion with the See of Rome. You have yet to convince me that your interpretation of what it means to be a Christian is more valid than theirs.



Every interpretation of Christianity I cited above is held by people who have read the whole thing, setting particular store in the words of Jesus. What makes you imagine that, if I read the whole thing, I'd end up agreeing with you and not them?

Or to put it another way, how do you expect me, an atheist, to be able to base my judgement of what it means to be a Christian on what the Bible says, when so many thousands of people who've devoted their lives to what the Bible says don't actually agree among themselves what the Bible says??

Psalm 13:5

I never said Catholics are not Christians. Please do not put words in my mouth, that is one of my pet peeves. I said there are some differences, that is not the same thing as saying Catholics are not Christians.

French Prometheus

Where is the evidence that Hitler took part in these ceremonies or more generally that he was "anti-Christian"? If you want to make a point, you need to support it with hard evidence that's available for all to see. As was said above, "Table talks" and the like are no evidence.
Mein Kampf, Hitler's public speeches and his private letters (written in his own hand and a priori not destined to the general public) all state that he considered himself a Christian.
You need to come up with similar hard evidence if you want to prove he was "anti-Christian".

The Evil One

<sigh> All right, you know that Catholics are Christians. So why did you say this:



Did you perhaps mean "I know that Catholic Christians and non-Catholic Christians have differences"?

Or perhaps "I know that Catholic Christians and Protestant Christians have differences"?

Can you at least understand why using the word "Christian" when it is fairly obvious from context that what you mean is "Protestant", and setting up an oppositon of "Catholic" to "Christian", would lead people to think that you don't consider Catholics to be Christians? Particularly when certain uninformed Protestants have been known in the past to claim that Catholics aren't Christians?

"Christian" is a superordinate of "Catholic", as "dog" is a superordinate of "dachshund". Would you say "I know there are differences between dachshunds and dogs?"

Can you understand that if you did say that, an observer would be justified in assuming you were under the impression that dachshunds weren't dogs?

Jack the Bodiless

Psalm 13:5:
I am well aware that Jesus taught a different approach. But I'm discussing what Moses taught. Where are the verses where Moses says anything resembling "turn the other cheek"?

Moses laid down laws that everyone was supposed to follow: that they had a duty to follow.

But you're still avoiding the issue: why is Moses not "satanic", if Hitler was?

Psalm 13:5

The Evil One- I was hoping you'd know what I meant, but I'll have to remember to be more specific in the future.


Jack the Bodiless - I talked about both the Exodus scripture and the NT one. If you still want to talk about Moses, I'll try to post later tonight or Friday. I really have to go now, I've been on this computer for too long!


ciao for now.

French Prometheus

I'm sorry if I sound aggressive to you but many of your posts are very offensive and you don't seem to realize it (e.g. "Your hate and bitterness is coming through very strong").
I've said that many people here have already argued about these topics (Hitler, abortion, the Bible,...) with Christians (and others). That doesn't mean that everything's said. But you shouldn't expect people to listen religiously to your sermons (especially the extensive Bible quotes) and not react.
You were very condescending, though you had good intentions, when you asked us to read the whole Bible (as if no-one here had done that before). Let me be a little condescending with you too (good intentions only) : read the link about common fallacies and try and avoid them (esp. no true Scotsman, ad numeram, ad hominem and ad verecundiam). Your aguments will be much more convincing. And I'm sure that's what you want.

If you no longer want to respond to my posts, well, that's your right. I won't stop responding to your posts when I have something to say, even if you don't reply to my objections. But if you have good counter-arguments to make, you lose a great opportunity. It's not a one-on-on debate. There are many debaters and also a silent public.

I'm sure you are a nice person with good intentions. I sincerely think it's too bad our confrontations gave you such a bad impression of me But I won't forsake intellectual honesty just to rectify your prejudices about me.

Jack the Bodiless

Moses on killing heretics:
Hitler:
Moses on the treatment of prisoners of war:
Moses on the Final Solution to the Caananite Question:
There is MUCH more of this: in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

jbernier

Without wading through this entire thread I do not know if the following question has been asked but I feel that it is very obvious: So what? So what if Hitler was a Christian? That does not mean that there is a necessary connection between Nazism and Christianity. You have to establish that for this to really be meaningful: That somehow Nazism (and its corresponding anti-semitism, etc.) are necessary products of Christian thought and practice. Whether Hitler was a Christian is irrelevant to that Christian; all it would establish is that in this one historically contingent human biography we have a Nazi, an anti-semite and a Christian all wrapped up in one. That says something about Hitler; it says nothing about Christianity.

Basically was Nazism a necessary consequence of Christian thought or a contingent consequence? This is the crucial question here. There is no question that it has a good deal of its roots in German Christian ideology. But did that have to be? Was this inevitable, given the basic teachings of Christianity? That is the real question.

Philippe*

Mr. Irishguy has already given you evidences at the beginning of the thread. I guess it was suffisant. So you've got evidences he was a christian in public and evidences that he was anti-christian with his nazi fellows.

Philippe