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aa5874 · 10-21-2009, 02:56 PM

Catholic Encyclopedia

Quote:

Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus and theologian, born at Antioch in Syria about 393; died about 457. Theodoret ("Dial. Immutab.", I, iv, 33a, Paris, 1642) is the authority for the statement that St. Peter appointed Ignatius to the See of Antioch. St. John Chrysostom lays special emphasis on the honor conferred upon the martyr in receiving his episcopal consecration at the hands of the Apostles themselves ("Hom. in St. Ig.", IV. 587). Natalis Alexander quotes Theodoret to the same effect (III, xii, art. xvi, p. 53).

As soon as it was claimed St. Peter appointed Ignatius it should be known that we are now in the world of fiction.

Peter was a fictitious character in the Jesus stories who "witnessed" Jesus walking on water, transfiguring, resurrected and ascending through the clouds and recieved the Holy Ghost when something like fire was on his head.

Huon · 10-22-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

As soon as it was claimed St. Peter appointed Ignatius it should be known that we are now in the world of fiction.

Peter was a fictitious character in the Jesus stories who "witnessed" Jesus walking on water, transfiguring, resurrected and ascending through the clouds and recieved the Holy Ghost when something like fire was on his head.

I would not go so far. Since christianity exists, it has some ancestors.

What I find puzzling is the existence of a catholic hierarchy in in this small sect, with a super-bishop Peter appointing, before 67/68 naturally, official date of the crucifixion of Peter, head downwards, the guy Ignatius, born around 50, dead between 98 and 117 (reign of Trajan, without precisions).

In 67/68, at Antioch, always described as an important centre for the nascent Christianity, a bishop (episcopos, supervisor) is a young man, 18 years old. Usually, an episcopos was also an “elder”…

Fiction or legend ? Dunno. This story is a good thing for the Patriarchs of Antioch, name acknowledged around 380, and accepted at Ephesus-431.

Roger Pearse · 10-22-2009, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

The letters of Ignatius that have been transmitted to us come in a long recension and a short recension. The long is an interpolated version of the short, sometime in the 4th century, by someone with Apollinarist leanings. There is no problem with the short version.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Except that, from the catholic Encyclopedy itself, "even the genuine epistles (the short version) were greatly interpolated. For this reason they are incapable of bearing witness to the original form".

:devil1:

I think you have misunderstood the CE, I'm afraid.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

PhilosopherJay · 10-22-2009, 07:06 AM

Hi aa5874,

All of these quotes lined up together does produce the idea that Jesus was a spirit that was raised from the dead. Joshua (Yeshua/Jesus) was a second Moses who completed Moses' work by conquering the land of Israel. When the passages speak of God raising Joshua from the dead to sit at his right hand, they are possibly talking about the spirit of a militant warrior.

Being under Roman occupation, the Jews would have used coded language to talk about their resistance. Raising Joshua (the Jewish savior-warrior) from the dead would have been their way of talking about the spirit of Jewish resistance in their time.

One might compare it to the way modern Native Americans think of Geronimo, the medicine man and last great Indian Warrior who fought against the U.S. Government. Sky-divers still shout the name "Geronimo" to give themselves courage.

Dr M D Magee has an excellent article on the Joshua Cult.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craigart14

If one read only the epistles and had the pre-formed notion that Jesus was mythological god - they would make absolutely no sense. Instead they only make sense in the light that Jesus was a real person."

Thoughts?

Craig

But, if one reads the epistles quite the opposite is true. Jesus is presented as a God, or an entity that rose dead, and that must have RISEN to save mankind from sin.

Let's read the epistles.

1 Corinthians 15.3-

Romans 4:24 -

Ro 6:4 -

Romans 6:9 -

Romans 7:4 -

Romans 8:11 -

Romans 10:9 -

1Corinthians 6:14 -

1Corinthians 15:17 -

2Co 4:14 -

Ga 1:1 -

Eph 1:20 -

Quote:

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places..

So, it is quite clear that Jesus was believed to be some kind of supernatural entity when the Epistles are read.

If Jesus was human, salvation from sin would not be possible and Paul's preaching would be in vain.

show_no_mercy · 10-22-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

All of these quotes lined up together does produce the idea that Jesus was a spirit that was raised from the dead. Joshua (Yeshua/Jesus) was a second Moses who completed Moses' work by conquering the land of Israel. When the passages speak of God raising Joshua from the dead to sit at his right hand, they are possibly talking about the spirit of a militant warrior.

Being under Roman occupation, the Jews would have used coded language to talk about their resistance. Raising Joshua (the Jewish savior-warrior) from the dead would have been their way of talking about the spirit of Jewish resistance in their time.

One might compare it to the way modern Native Americans think of Geronimo, the medicine man and last great Indian Warrior who fought against the U.S. Government. Sky-divers still shout the name "Geronimo" to give themselves courage.

Dr M D Magee has an excellent article on the Joshua Cult.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Moses' successor "Joshua" - who was the "son of Fish" - is also the model after which all subsequent messiahs (like Simon bar Kochba) molded themselves after. For all intents, Joshua was the first messiah. Christians turned this around and made him the final one.

Craigart14 · 10-22-2009, 01:11 PM

A couple of corrections. I misspelled "docetists" (sorry), and the writer I've been citing is not Elvgard but Alvar Ellegard (brain fart).

I'm learning a lot from this thread. Sometimes we cross verbal swords with people who are very sure of themselves, and they accuse us of being dogmatic while they are citing dogma from so far out in left field that I can't figure out where they started and how they got to the point they're pushing. I think this other writer simply takes the texts he likes at face value and trashes the ones he doesn't like. I am an atheist, but I've gotten to that position by studying (The Epic of Gilgamesh was a real eye-opener), and I really am interested in the study of these ancient texts. The "official version" seems to unravel so easily that sometimes I think I may have become a deconstructionist. And sometimes I do fear becoming too dogmatic.

I really appreciate all the responses I've gotten. Thanks, everyone.

Craig

aa5874 · 10-22-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi aa5874,

All of these quotes lined up together does produce the idea that Jesus was a spirit that was raised from the dead. Joshua (Yeshua/Jesus) was a second Moses who completed Moses' work by conquering the land of Israel. When the passages speak of God raising Joshua from the dead to sit at his right hand, they are possibly talking about the spirit of a militant warrior.

The Church writers of antiquity propagated that the spirit did not die. It is flesh that dies and can be resurrected.

It was for the very reason the Church writers rejected Marcion's Phantom Jesus.

See "On the flesh of Christ" under the name of Tertullian.

Quote:

...."For they cannot but be apprehensive that, if it be once determined that Christ's flesh was human, a presumption would immediately arise in opposition to them, that that flesh must by all means rise again, which has already risen in Christ....

And in gLuke when Jesus died after crucifixion, his spirit did not die.

Luke 23.46

Quote:

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

The mere mention of death by the Pauline writer is directly related to the death of the flesh.

Sheshbazzar · 10-22-2009, 05:36 PM

Then there is the 'watchword' of the 2 Maccabee's 8:23...."The Help of י י " > "Yah' shuah" > "Joshua" > 'Jesus'
The legendary 'watchword' of "YAH's help" again becomes embodied.

dog-on · 10-23-2009, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Then there is the 'watchword' of the 2 Maccabee's 8:23...."The Help of י י " > "Yah' shuah" > "Joshua" > 'Jesus'
The legendary 'watchword' of "YAH's help" again becomes embodied.

You do realize that "by revelation" actually means "cribbed from scripture", right?

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10-22-2009, 01:11 PM	#26
Craigart14 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Georgia Posts: 718	A couple of corrections. I misspelled "docetists" (sorry), and the writer I've been citing is not Elvgard but Alvar Ellegard (brain fart). I'm learning a lot from this thread. Sometimes we cross verbal swords with people who are very sure of themselves, and they accuse us of being dogmatic while they are citing dogma from so far out in left field that I can't figure out where they started and how they got to the point they're pushing. I think this other writer simply takes the texts he likes at face value and trashes the ones he doesn't like. I am an atheist, but I've gotten to that position by studying (The Epic of Gilgamesh was a real eye-opener), and I really am interested in the study of these ancient texts. The "official version" seems to unravel so easily that sometimes I think I may have become a deconstructionist. And sometimes I do fear becoming too dogmatic. I really appreciate all the responses I've gotten. Thanks, everyone. Craig

10-22-2009, 05:36 PM	#28
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Then there is the 'watchword' of the 2 Maccabee's 8:23...."The Help of י י " > "Yah' shuah" > "Joshua" > 'Jesus' The legendary 'watchword' of "YAH's help" again becomes embodied.

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