Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Paradox · 07-31-2005, 03:31 AM

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Originally Posted by Jenn6162

Thanks for your recognition of my effort. I am no apologist, so I know the battle I am up against. I would definately say I am the least intelligent in this discussion, but I am not intimidated. I just want my point recognized, even if I am wrong I still want it recognized. Not just saying it did not happen in a day.

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Originally Posted by Jenn6162

Thanks for making me feel so welcome. I don't want to be the crazy fundie Christian who can't make a point to save her life, like I was afraid I was becoming. I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong, my faith doesn't require any of these prophecies to be true. I am comfortable with my faith, and have had plenty of evidence for myself which I cannot show you.

For what it's worth, Jenn, I think you're putting up a valiant fight. I took a back seat to let some of the other folks here discuss this as they're much better informed than me (and I believe they're winning

). I certainly understand where you're coming from though. You're probably of the opinion that, if the Bible is the final authority, then it must be right about prophecy and therefore the facts should point in your direction - so you have nothing to fear from debate.

I don't think your inability to defend your position has anything to do with intelligence, and I don't think you're a "crazy" fundy. I just think that you, (as I once was) have been misinformed.

Jenn6162 · 07-31-2005, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paradox

For what it's worth, Jenn, I think you're putting up a valiant fight. I took a back seat to let some of the other folks here discuss this as they're much better informed than me (and I believe they're winning

). I certainly understand where you're coming from though. You're probably of the opinion that, if the Bible is the final authority, then it must be right about prophecy and therefore the facts should point in your direction - so you have nothing to fear from debate.

I don't think your inability to defend your position has anything to do with intelligence, and I don't think you're a "crazy" fundy. I just think that you, (as I once was) have been misinformed.

How sweet of you to say that Paradox. They certainly are winning, but my faith is not based on the Bible alone. I read the Bible long after I believed, and I have no preachers telling me what and how to believe. Everything I know to be true I have researched for myself, so I am admitting defeat in this debate. I do not attend church because I disagree with much of what is said. I watch some preachers on TV, but disagree with much of what they have to say as well. I am thinking of forming my own little fundy sect, just for myself...lol. Kidding. Like I said I am not on a mission to save souls, and I wish I could tell myself why I am here on this board.

I have read almost all of your testimony and when I make it through, I really do want to give you my thoughts in a PM, but not with the purpose of trying to bring you back to Christianity. Your story is amazing and I understand the reasons that brought you to deconversion. I can't imagine how you must have felt when that preacher made that awful comment about being glad to see everyone. I would have walked out right then and there. I have a many problems with organized religion, and prefer to worship God in my own way.

I put up the best fight I could, and I will admit that my faith is very child like. I just believe for so many reasons. I have had so many answered prayers, seen the demons, had help when there was no way I could give myself the credit, and my changed heart. The Bible would come after these proofs. I just see unity in the Bible, but I am no good at arguing it. I beleive if I was better at explaining and understanding, maybe I would be able to put up a better fight. After all these things have been revealed to me by various posters, it still doesn't make me doubt the Bibles authenticity. Here's why, I believe this man Jesus came to the earth, and the story happened just like it has been told for centuries. Jesus spoke in a way that made so much sense, the pharisees didn't like being told they were wrong. He came riding in on a donkey, and that wasn't good enough. I am bad at explaining but it all makes sense to me. If nothing else, Jesus went to the cross to die for the worlds sins. That's good enough for me. I believe in Him, that's about all I can say. My faith has always been there, even when I didn't know the whole story a small part of me believed.

I am going to try to stay out of debate, for fear of doing more harm than good in the big picture. Thanks to all who tried to wake me up out of my naive dream world but I am happy here. :wave:

Paradox · 07-31-2005, 11:53 AM

Thanks again for taking the time to read through all that Jenn, I'll certainly look forward to your PM once you're done.

Oh, and please don't stay out of the debates. It's been a pleasure discussing stuff with you. I'm sure that most Christians would say that your attitude is far more important than your ability to win a debate anyway. And besides, your skills so far are far better than some of the attempts from other believers I've seen here since I've been posting.

badger3k · 07-31-2005, 06:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Jenn6162

I believe it would have to be a complete coalition as described in Ezekiel, and I believe Russia and Iran would have to be involved.

OK.

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Yes, I understood you. I appreciate you going out of your way not to be rude.

Thanks - I try, although sometimes some people (that I am debating with on other threads) stretch that to the breaking point. Sometimes, though, people here (and I include myself) tend to talk rather bluntly, so keep that in mind. Often it is not meant as rude, but can be taken that way. When in doubt, ask.

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Okay, I got that. I have heard of it but never seen it. Of course I am from GA and never watched Dukes of Hazard either. I don't watch much T.V.

I'll try to remember - I prefer to watch mostly Discovery and History channel programming, but do watch a few "real" tv shows.

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I understand where you are coming from here, but how many pages do you think it would take to cover each and every base. I think that one could explain any number of things away using your method. Faith is required for Christianity, there is no promise of evidence.

True, but if you want to discuss prophecies, or make claims that they came true, especially on a skeptics forum, you need to include evidence. I can accept if you believe one came true, but if you want to try to show that to myself and others, we need evidence. That's the reason for the standards - unambiguous, only one possible meaning, etc.

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I have tried to give sources that I thought you would accept, I apologize that they were not good enough. I did not know that about wikipedia. I think some of the egos on this board are huge. I am a professional, and I am in graduate school. I don't live to show off my intelligence, and I don't claim to be a genius because I have a high level of education. I agree with you on the Meshech I had to wade through 3 pages of Bible sites to find that one. If I had the time I would have searched harder for a better source. I know the drill with credible and unbiased sources, and would expect the same if others were to make a claim. I have tried to use good sources when posting info on this board. I am also not a skilled apologist, and I did not know that was a requirement for posting here. I have very little experience with apologetics, and did not come here to convert anyone. I never expected to like this board as much as I do. I am hoping I will get bored with this site soon, it is taking up a lot of my time.

I'm not sure of the egos, but the level of knowledge and experience here is high. I started out with some, but learned a lot here - and things here led me to more research on my own. We also tend to have higher standards of evidence (and research) because of the high expertise here. If you are in graduate school, you should have access to some research databases (I currently have access to quite a few sources through EBSCO, among others). If you do stay here, you'll gradually learn what makes good evidence here, and there is no shame posting what you did - we're just looking for more, that's all. It's not personal. We all refer to various things here - sometimes they suffice, other times they don't. Live and learn. :thumbs:

Right now, this is the board I frequent the most, and it does take a lot of time. But it is very rewarding and intellectually stimulating. If you're in school (or even if you are not), you'll have to juggle it all - I know I dropped my writing when I was taking classes, and when I get a job my usage will drop some more, but there is too much here that will make me stop.

Jenn6162 · 07-31-2005, 07:05 PM

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Originally Posted by badger3k

True, but if you want to discuss prophecies, or make claims that they came true, especially on a skeptics forum, you need to include evidence. I can accept if you believe one came true, but if you want to try to show that to myself and others, we need evidence. That's the reason for the standards - unambiguous, only one possible meaning, etc.

I have learned this the hard way. I just am not equipped to participate too much in these debates. I posted this thread without understanding and knowing much about IIDB. That being said, I will keep that in mind and speak up if I have something to say.

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Originally Posted by badger3k

I'm not sure of the egos, but the level of knowledge and experience here is high. I started out with some, but learned a lot here - and things here led me to more research on my own. We also tend to have higher standards of evidence (and research) because of the high expertise here. If you are in graduate school, you should have access to some research databases (I currently have access to quite a few sources through EBSCO, among others). If you do stay here, you'll gradually learn what makes good evidence here, and there is no shame posting what you did - we're just looking for more, that's all. It's not personal. We all refer to various things here - sometimes they suffice, other times they don't. Live and learn. thumbs:

Egos. Again bad choice of words, and a bit emotionally charged. Thanks again for this info. I am drained by the effort I put into papers and such with grad school. I am no writer, so I don't put much effort into things I am not graded on. I have access to nursing journals and medical research databases, but I doubt they would help me much here. We speak a whole different language anyway.

Thanks for your taking your time.

badger3k · 07-31-2005, 10:38 PM

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Originally Posted by Jenn6162

I have learned this the hard way. I just am not equipped to participate too much in these debates. I posted this thread without understanding and knowing much about IIDB. That being said, I will keep that in mind and speak up if I have something to say.

That's the way I started - just commenting or questioning here and there, until I felt comfortable enough to dive in. Of course, sometimes a comment can lead to a deep plunge anyway...

But please don't take that to mean that you shouldn't start threads or anything - sometimes a plunge is healthy, and sometimes it is interesting to post a question and see what information comes up. There is a lot of education, talent, and information available here - use it if you need to.

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Egos. Again bad choice of words, and a bit emotionally charged. Thanks again for this info. I am drained by the effort I put into papers and such with grad school. I am no writer, so I don't put much effort into things I am not graded on. I have access to nursing journals and medical research databases, but I doubt they would help me much here. We speak a whole different language anyway.

Thanks for your taking your time.

Well, I tend to think of egos (as most people use it) in terms of unjustified or overbearing. Like I said, the way people write here can seem egotistical when it may not be (but we all have ideas of self-worth and such, and they can sometimes get the better of us). Participating here will work great for writing skills - trust me on that. Yeah, I see the journals, and in some areas - such as this Biblical Criticism and History forum - it probably won;t help much. In other areas (science/Skepticism and Evo/Cre) it might help more, if you are into those kind of discussions.

You're welcome. I think we got off on the wrong foot and I wanted to correct that, and help you out. Differing views are always welcome.

Jenn6162 · 08-01-2005, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badger3k

Well, I tend to think of egos (as most people use it) in terms of unjustified or overbearing. Like I said, the way people write here can seem egotistical when it may not be (but we all have ideas of self-worth and such, and they can sometimes get the better of us). Participating here will work great for writing skills - trust me on that. Yeah, I see the journals, and in some areas - such as this Biblical Criticism and History forum - it probably won;t help much. In other areas (science/Skepticism and Evo/Cre) it might help more, if you are into those kind of discussions.

You're welcome. I think we got off on the wrong foot and I wanted to correct that, and help you out. Differing views are always welcome.

Thanks for making that point, I was wrong to assume it was egotistical. Yes, I suppose my access to those journals would be helpful for evolution and science I will have to check out those forums. I find debating YEC very boring and pointless. I am not dogmatic about how the earth came to be. Whatever Genesis says I just take for what it is. I don't question the how and when. I will contribute if I can.

I do agree we got off on the wrong foot, I am glad we got that cleared up. Thanks for welcoming me.

sharon45 · 08-01-2005, 11:36 AM

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Originally Posted by Jenn6162

I was hoping to start a discussion on fulfilled prophecy. We know that the Psalms were written around the 10th century BC, so how could this prophecy be so amazingly accurate while being written so long ago? We know that a man named Jesus was crucified for claiming to be the Son of God, so this in my opinion is not the kind of prophecy which is unverifiable requiring faith to believe. Thoughts??

1. The Psalms contain no prophecy.

2. The NT only claims a man named jesus as to being the Messiah. Yet in the book, jesus didn't fullfill even one prophecy associated with the true expected Messiah.

Jenn6162 · 08-01-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sharon45

1. The Psalms contain no prophecy.

2. The NT only claims a man named jesus as to being the Messiah. Yet in the book, jesus didn't fullfill even one prophecy associated with the true expected Messiah.

That original topic has been shot down, for many reasons other than the ones you posted. Thanks for your contribution though. We would disagree on whether or not he fulfilled any prophecies. I believe he has so I will bring up another one, posted by a believer who is now deceased. I learned so much from him. It is not a fulfilled prophecy really, but an illustration of how Jesus came to fulfill the law. I am curious what you and others would say about this story though. I don't think I am breaking any rules by posting this, but if I am my apologies and please remove it.

It is long, so I understand if you don't want to read it.

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I know I posted this somewhere before on the boards, but i couldnt find it. But, since today is Simchat Torah, and the very last day of special observance for the month, I thought I would post it again.

________________________________________________

Okay. First a little history. This event takes place in John 8, the day after the events that took place in Chapter 7:37 through verse 53. Let's look there first:

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In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
John 7:37-40

When Jesus stands and cries in the Temple is, in my opinion, one of the most beautiful and meaningful events in the life of Messiah. In John 7:2, we read that this was during the Feast of Sukkot (Tabernacles), one of the three Feasts of Ascension (when all Jewish men from 12 years old and upward were required to be in Jerusalem).

On the last day, the great day of the Feast, is Hosannah Rabbah, and a special ceremony took place as long as the Temple of God stood. The priest would be split into three divisions and perform certain functions.

The first would stay in the Temple and prepare to shout the Hallel and glorify God (along with the Levitical Choir and musicians) when the other two groups got back from their assigned duties.

The second division of priests would go out to the Kidron valley on the north of the Temple to cut down huge (25-30 foot long) willow branches. The willow branch is a symbol of the resurrection, for when these willow branches were put into the ground, they would take root and grow into trees. These priests would bring the branches into great stands to wave them over the Altar of sacrifice to make the sound of a mighty rushing wind to commemorate the day that God lit the fire of the Altar in Solomon's Temple (2 Chronicles 7:1-4). They would enter the Temple through the Eastern Gate (where the resurrected Jesus will enter at His return) and wait til the appropriate time.

The last group accompanied the Kohen HaGaddol (High Priest) to the pool of Siloam, where he dipped a silver pitcher into the pool to draw out of the well "Living Waters". As he drew the water out, he would sing/chant chapter 12 of Isaiah:

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And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of

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Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

(can you see the Messianic prophecy here. The underlined part reads in Hebrew "Behold, God is Y'shua. I will put my confidence in and reverence him. YAH, YHVH is my strength, my rejoicing, and has become my Y'shua" -- Y'shua is Jesus name in Hebrew! )

After the water is drawn, the Kohen HaGaddol and his company would come up to the Temple through the Water Gate and wait outside the entrance. (as a quick aside, as soon as the companies of Kohen left, everyone would bow down and wait until the ceremony began)

What these three companies were waiting for is the sound of the flute. The ceremony began with the sound of a flute playing from the pinnacle of the Temple of God. This flute was called "The Pierced One" and had five holes in it (remember Jesus had five wounds: 2 hands, 2 feet and his side!). As soon as the pierced one cried out, the ceremony began. However, in this year, while everyone is bowing and waiting for the Pierced One to cry out, Jesus STOOD and cried instead (for He truly is the Pierced One - Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16, John 19:34-37 & Revelation 1:7!)! HalleluYAH!

Jesus cries out and tells them "This ceremony we have celebrated together for 1500 years, it is pointing to this: I will cause the Ruach HaKodesh [Holy Spirit] to come and dwell in you, if you will put your confidence in me, just like the Scripture said that the Kohen HaGaddol just quoted!" Many believed on Him on this day. And Jesus spoke with such power and authority that the Levitical Officers (who operated as policemen in the Temple complex and were commissioned to arrest anyone who disturbed the ceremony) could not arrest Jesus but simply said "No man ever spoke like this Man!" (John 7:46).

All of this takes place on the last day of Sukkot, the 21st day of Tishre. The following day is a minor Feast of the LORD called "Simchat Torah", or "Rejoicing with the Torah". It was supposed to be a great day of celebration and rejoicing before the LORD because God had given His people the Living Torah (who is, indeed, Jesus). Instead of rejoicing that Jesus had come bringing salvation, deliverence and the forgiveness of sin, the accusers came to bring accusation. On this day, Jesus was once again in the Temple teaching (John 8:2) -- the common Jews rejoicing with the Living Word, and the leaders bringing the accusation.

(I am sorry that this is taking so long to set up, but this information is needed to rightly divide the Word here, and have understanding of what Jesus said and did).

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And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, they say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Now just a little more history: Whenever someone was caught in adultery, both the man and the woman would be brought to the Nicanor gates and accused. If witnesses could be gathered to confirm that adultery had indeed been committed, then there was a certain ceremony that would be done in order to bring judgment. However, in this instance they only brought the woman. This was a violation of the Oral Law of God. Strike One.

Secondly, the priest was required to then stoop down and write the law that had been broken (na'aph, or 'adultery' would be written in Hebrew), along with the name of the accused, in the dust of the floor of the Temple (which Jesus did) [actually, the priest could write the law and the names anywhere, as long as the marks were not permanent - and the dust of the floor of the Temple was the most common place]. By doing this, Jesus showed these accusers that THEY were not keeping the law, but He would anyway. Strike Two.

So these men ignored the law, brought the woman only, and then continued with accusation. So Jesus stood up (after plainly demonstrating they were violating the law themselves) said "He who is without sin among you, lem him first cast a stone at her" John 8:7). THEY did not want to cast the stone, they wanted Jesus to condemn her, so they continued accusing.

Now to get this last part, lemme throw in just a little more history. Every year on Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement), the Kohen HaGaddol would immerse up to 11 times in a Mikveh (a baptismal tank) in order to be ceremonially cleansed between each separate portion of the day's sacrifices. At the end of Yom Kippur, there was a celebration at the home of the Kohen HaGaddol, and there would be great rejoicing that God had received the sacrifice, and everyone’s sins had been rolled fore ward another year (as they were waiting on Messiah). To end the day, and announce to everyone the party was over (and it was time to go home), the Kohen HaGaddol would come out and quote Jeremiah 17:13 "'Oh YHVH, the Mikveh of Israel...' just as the mikveh cleansed me on this day, may the Holy One (Messiah), blessed be his name, cleanse all Israel when He comes".

(The KJV reads "Oh LORD the hope of Israel"... however, if you get your Strong's Concordance out, you can look up the word translated hope, and it is #4723 'mikveh' -- which is a baptismal tank).

So any religious Jewish man had heard this verse quoted by the High Priest every year since he was 12 years old. At 50, he would have heard it 39 times! (although Yom Kippur was NOT a Feast of ascension, many would come up for YOMA anyway, because of it's close relationship in time to Sukkot, when they had to be there anyway). The entire verse is as follows:

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O LORD, the hope of Israel, all that forsake thee shall be ashamed, and they that depart from me shall be written in the earth, because they have forsaken the LORD, the fountain of living waters.
Jeremiah 17:13

The way it reads in Hebrew is:

"Oh YHVH, the Immerser of Israel, all those who leave your way shall be put to shame (publicly embarassed), those who turn aside from my ways will have their names written in the dust and blotted out, for they have departed from YHVH, the fountain of Mayim Hayim (the waters of life).."

So Jesus gave them a chance -- they could have been just embarassed and then repented before the LORD. but instead they rejected, and in turn had their names written in the dust. This passage in Jeremiah is a Messianic prophecy of what Messiah would do when He came - and in this passage in John, we see Jesus fulfill the prophecy.

In my opinion, the most interesting part is verse 9:

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And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

They heard the voice of God in their conscience, the Spirit of God bringing to their remembrance all the times they heard the Kohen HaGaddol quote the verse -- but instead of receiving the conviction and repenting, they departed from Him (just as it was prophesied!). They left from the eldest to the youngest, the older having heard the verse quoted more often (imho). And Jesus did this on the day following His announcement that HE was the fountain of living waters (John 7:37-39). Strike Three and they were out!

(as one more aside, then Jesus returns to his teaching of the multitude in the Temple, by saying "I am the light of the world"... this was the very morning that the four great lamps of the court in the Temple (which were called "The light of the world" were being extinguished after being kept lit for the entire celebration of Sukkot).

That is my take on it, and I can't wait to see the video of it in heaven.

Diogenes the Cynic · 08-01-2005, 02:21 PM

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(can you see the Messianic prophecy here. The underlined part reads in Hebrew "Behold, God is Y'shua.

No it doesn't.

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So Jesus gave them a chance -- they could have been just embarassed and then repented before the LORD. but instead they rejected, and in turn had their names written in the dust. This passage in Jeremiah is a Messianic prophecy of what Messiah would do when He came

No it isn't. And your friend's assertion that Jesus wrote any names in the dirt is without foundation. John doesn't say that. It doesn't even say Jesus wrote anything at all. The Greek says he "scratched" in the dirt with a stick. That's it. Your friend is putting words into John and then incorrectly calling it a fulfilment of something in Jeremiah that is not even a Messianic prophecy.

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they departed from Him (just as it was prophesied!).

There is no such prophecy.

Oh...and there was also no prophecy that the Messiah would be "pierced."

The OT Messiah has a specific set of expectations, none of which were met by Jesus. The OT Messiah is supposed to be a direct patrilineal descendant of David (an requirement which would be directly contradicted if Jesus was born of a virgin and which none of the Gospels make any claim for) who would rebuild the Temple, restore the kingdom of David, bring world peace, return all Jews to Israel and cause the world to worship one God. Jesus did none of that.

You should also know that the OT expectations of the Messiah are that he will be a human king (not God incarnate or the "son of God"), that he will not be a redeemer of sins and that there is no expectation that he will suffer, or die, or be resurrected. The passages that many Christians try to argue as prophecies of Jesus usually have no Messianic intent in their original context. The authors of the gospels did that frequently themselves.

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07-31-2005, 11:53 AM	#203
Paradox Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Essex, England Posts: 608	Thanks again for taking the time to read through all that Jenn, I'll certainly look forward to your PM once you're done. Oh, and please don't stay out of the debates. It's been a pleasure discussing stuff with you. I'm sure that most Christians would say that your attitude is far more important than your ability to win a debate anyway. And besides, your skills so far are far better than some of the attempts from other believers I've seen here since I've been posting.

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