reflector

Thank you for getting back to me...

You're right in that justice demands accountability; that those who have committed the crime pay for their crime. We are not in disagreement on this issue. Where we do stand in disagreement is the extent that it is carried out...

From what I have seen, atheists as well as agnostics have had issues with the idea of a hell as being from an evil god. In actuality, hell is not the punishment. Separation from God is the punishment.

The Bible teaches that, "it is appointed unto men to die once, and after this is the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). Furthermore, it states that "[ALL] shall appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil (2 Corinthians 5:10). As we can see, there will be varying degrees of reward/punishment (see also 1 Corinthians chapter 3).



You stated: "Christianity demands that everybody is held accountable for the actions of their ancestors..." I beg to differ....While Romans Chapter 5 does express that all fell into a sinful nature as a result of the poor decision making skills on Adam's part, people fail to realize that they themselves have broken God's Holiest law in the land...Love the Lord, thy God will all thy heart and soul and strength...Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Galatians 3:22 shows that the scripture has concluded all under sin while Ezekiel the prophet spoke the words of God in that the soul that sinneth it SHALL DIE! (Ezek. 18:4). "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23). Everyone is accountable for their own actions and the only thing that we have inherited was the sinful Adamic nature of our common father, Adam.

I will openly admit that scripture does bear out that sometimes the punishment has affected the children (Exod. 20) that the Lord will visit the iniquity of the fathers unto the third and fourth generation. But then again, tell me what family is not affected by poor choices on the part of the parents? In addition, wiping people out before they have the chance to bring others harm is probably more merciful in the long run anyway. Those who have not made a formal stance against God still have the opportunity to go to heaven to be in the presence of the Lord and it keeps their 3rd, 4th, & so on generations out of hell in the first place.


Finally, the premise for Christianity IS NOT that two wrongs make a right. The foundation for Christianity is a relationship founded on mercy & grace; truth & faith. Besides, no one killed Jesus. He gave His own life. Recall that Jesus Himself said in John 10 that no man taketh my life (psyche - "soul" or "spirit"), but I lay it down myself that I may take it up again. He further states (vs 18) that no one would take it from Him, but that He lays it down of His own accord. How many of us, outside of suicide, have the ability to control when we were born, or when we will die? Better yet, how many of us have the power to raise ourselves back from the dead? Because Jesus did these things (sinless life, death on the cross, and resurrection from the dead) we have the ability to accept His grace and His mercy as long as I accept it in faith. No one killed Jesus.

If it was two wrongs make a right, I would disagree with it as well.

EV

reflector

JW,

Where'd you copy that?

EV

reflector

Hi Johnny,

from my prior post...

Hope that this helps!

EV

Doug Shaver

Never mind "they." What do you say about him and why do you think I should burn in hell forever if I don't believe you?

reflector

Hi Doug,

Please understand that I am not just here to bash you over the head with my Bible. I understand that people have not thought out their words before and have probably come off as offensive. Also understand, though, that the truth hurts sometimes. If it hurts, then we would need to understand why it hurts.

It is obvious to me that you have heard what "they" say. I just want an idea of what you have heard. In the meantime, let me explain what the Bible does say about burning in hell.

Jesus spoke an awful lot about hell in His teachings, so it must be a real place. I have to conclude that He does not want people to go there in the first place due to the fact that Jesus came to take upon Himself the sins of the whole world so that you and I can reestablish the fellowship between ourselves and the creator. 2 Peter 3:9 says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If God doesn't think that you need to burn in hell, then I don't think that you need to burn in hell....HOWEVER, HE IS a RIGHTEOUS and HOLY and JUST God. Because of these attributes, our sin does have to be addressed before we can enter into His presence. We must understand that our ways are not His ways (Isa 55:8) and that He has told us that there is only one way to come into His presence. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me" (John 14:2). The best that we could ever do is only as filthy rags, so in order for us to come into His presence would be to inherit that ability. The only way to inherit that ability is to accept by faith God's Son. Why? Because God is not willing that any should perish, but (rather is willing) that all should come to repentance (of their sins).

Hell, is nothing more than a desolate waste. What do you do with your trash and waste when you are done with it? You throw it out! Those that would reject the creator will find themselves rejected by the creator for their unbelief. How sad!

You see, I don't want you to burn in hell either. That is why I am here typing away to bring the message to one more person. I want to help in any way that I can because I know that I was once in the same position as many of the people on this site. I grew up Catholic and I thought that I was religious. I went to church, but I felt a void there. I thought that if I still felt empty there, then there is no use in continuing to go. I felt as though it were futile. Even after that, when people would come to tell me about their relationship with Christ, I thought that they were just religious fanatics that were overly zealous about their beliefs and I wanted to have nothing to do with them. I tried to immerse myself in my studies and family life, but things just kept going sour. I was in my early twenties and before long, things in my life began to deteriorate. My marriage was falling apart and I was doing a horrible job being a friend as well as a father to my little girl. My wife and I were arguing all the time and so I felt that we needed a break from each other. I sent her and my daughter for a couple of weeks to visit with my mother-in-law. During this time, something happened that changed my life forever...

While she was gone, my wife received some Christian fiction in the mail. I had seen the titles before and thought that they were sci-fi (never having heard of the content before) and had actually wanted to read them. I figured, hey, my wife's gone for two weeks and I have nothing else to do...so I sat down and I began reading. I realized that the stuff that was contained therein was stuff that had been talked about for a long time. They were talking about the Bible and how it affected people and has been in existence for thousands of years, touching the lives of people around the globe. Never before had I understood the reason for my despair...I was alone and had no hope.

You see, I grew up thinking that there was a God, but never accepted His ways. As a result, I was 18 inches from heaven. I had a head knowledge that Jesus existed, but never accepted the free gift that He did for me, willingly sacrificing Himself so that I may live. On June 14th, 2000, I accepted Christ and for the first time in my life, I felt relief and burdens lifted away. I didn't understand what it was, but I knew that from that point on, I wanted to serve the one who had died for me millenia before I existed. While He was on the cross, I was on His mind. The burdens that He lifted were fleshly in nature...I was selfish and proud, never thinking of anyone but myself. Yet, here was this man who wasn't thinking of Himself. He spoke of hell and teaches that we already stand condemned if we reject the mercy and grace that he gave us. That night that I accepted Christ as my savior, I was no longer hellbound.

My friend, I came here to share with you not any special revelations, not to thump you on the head, but just to share with you the reason for the hope that I have in tomorrow. Just like the song says..."He touched me and made me whole."

In Christian love,

EV

Toto

Actually, that doesn't help explain anything, especially the question of why Mary's geneology?

And I would ask you (in my moderator capacity) to please avoid preaching in this forum. I hope you don't think that you are telling us anything new. Many here are former Christians, or know people who have been or are now Christians, and its nice (?) that you got this warm fuzzy feeling of psychic relief from reading Christian fiction (say - is there a hidden message there? Is the Holy Bible just another example of Christian fiction??)

But your emotional reactions are not proof of the truth of the message. Others have gotten similar psychological relief from a variety of religions, drugs, diet and exercise programs, self-hypnosis, etc.

In atheist respect for the variety of human psychological states and the near-infinite human capacity for creating therapeutic and entertaining psychodrama,

:wave:

Toto

Johnny Skeptic

As I told Lee Merrill:

Asha'man

It’s not atheists and agnostics that have issues, it’s Christians. The majority of them appear to believe in a “lake of fire� and “wailing and gnashing of teeth� version of hell, based on direct readings of the Bible (I’m sure you can find the verses). Your interpretation appears to be the minority, and is decidedly non-Biblical. I live in the heart of the Bible Belt, and thousands of hellfire and brimstone sermons are delivered around here on a weekly basis.

“Separation from God� is nothing but an invention by the squeamish, those who are unwilling to face the sadistic truth of Christianity. I’m pleased that you don’t have the stomach to accept an eternal burning as fair and just, but that’s a positive reflection on you more than on your religion.

Again, you seem to be ignoring the teachings of the vast majority of Christians. The entire Doctrine of Original Sin is exactly what I’ve described, holding people accountable for sins committed by ancestors. Even the newborn are at risk because of the actions of Adam and Eve. If you don’t like it, take it up with the Catholic Church.

It appears to me that you are what we commonly refer to as a “Cherry-Picker� theist. You read your holy book, but you only pick out the cherries that you like, ignoring all of the harsh truths that you dislike. We see them very often around here, party because most civilized people cannot accept the raw brutality and unfairness demonstrated by God and his followers in the OT.

You started posting in this thread with the perfect example: the contradictory genealogies of Joseph, husband of Mary. When faced with a perfectly clear contradiction, you simply ignored it (as instructed by Timothy). I, on the other hand, ignored Timothy and examined the genealogies closely and looked at the logical consequences. It appears to me to be a clear indication of fabrication, which puts the entire story in a whole new light.

Your cherry-picking has no rational basis. You ignore what you don’t like, and take what you like, without any sort of rhyme or reason. If I was to follow your lead, I’d reject everything from Genesis to Revelations, leaving only a few good sentences here and there, yet still call myself Christian.

No, it is exactly that. If Christianity was about true justice, then the death of Jesus (killed or suicide makes no difference) would be entirely irrelevant to my status with God. However, we get preached to on a daily basis about how “an innocent and righteous Jesus died for our sins,� which can have no other meaning that his wrongful death somehow fixed things on my behalf. "He took your punishment so you don't have to" is another version that we here time and time again. Jesus was the "pure and innocent sacraficial lamb." I cannot count how many posters have started on about how the death of an innocent man somehow fixed things with a God that demands “justice.�

reflector

Hey everyone...

Looking forward to continuing our discussion. As you can probably see, my responses are coming pretty late and I'm still working on my latest responses to several of your concerns. :blush:

Thank you so very much for your patience!

In Christian love,
EV

reflector

And BTW, how do I write something in Greek or in Hebrew on this site? Just curious. Please let me know.

EV