funinspace

Palm, it's not just a bunch of modern liberal xian scholars that disagree with your dating assumptions. Another example is the "New Bible Commentary", hardly a hotbed of revisionism. Though they acknowledge an argument for sixth century BC dating of Daniel, even they say there is a strong argument that Daniel was written in the second century BC. I too think your responses have been quite flippant and bereft of actual argument on specifcs. Maybe you should consider picking a specific point and responding in detail to it.

Asha'man

As Pervy has already suggested, the city is Tyre, and the prophecy is in Ezekiel 26.

Here is some extra info: Prophecy in the Bible? Notice the picture of present-day Tyre.

Actually, I think there may be another city or nation that supposedly would be wiped from memory, but I don't recall it at the moment. (Oh, the irony!)

Sven

I recently even started a thread about an apologetic concerning Tyre, but unfortunately few people were interested. :huh:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=96769

Garnet

[delurk]Oooops..Psalms I'm afraid you've just opened your mouth, inserted your foot and chewed vigorously all the way to the kneecap. Take a look back at the sources and you'll find that they are not anything you claim them to be in this post. I think you will also be surprised at the number of serious bible scholars who post in this forum.[/delurk]

Edited to add: By the way, foot in mouth disease is something that I'm intimately familiar with...have had many cases of it.

CX

Answer 1: It is unnecessary to explain that which did not happen.

Answer 2: All of them.

funinspace

Palm,

Another point: You are debating on a secular site. Before you claim a book like Daniel is fulfilling prophecies, you should at least attempt to show why you think it was written before said prophetic events. It's hardly a convincing argument to most here when even large numbers of respected xian Biblical scholars don't believe it was written during the times you believe. It's not prophetic of anything when one states after the fact, that something is going to happen, just because you place it in the context of the past. "I think I'll write a book that predicts the 9/11 event, and I'll ascribe it to the late C.S. Lewis in the 1950's". And that proves?

unknown4

Psalms 13:5, you refer to Egypt in Ezekiel 29:15 saying "It will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the other nations. I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nations." My question is, when was it ever the lowliest of kingdoms? Showing that it was dominated by other powers doesn't prove that it was truly the lowliest of kingdoms, does it? And, if it was at one point the lowliest of kingdoms, why would you think this prophecy only referred to a temporary humbling of Egypt? It seems to be a perpetual future prophecy, one which was not fulfilled to my knowledge, as Egypt has not always been (and I doubt ever was) the "lowliest of kingdoms".

Also, if you would, please read the context of Ezekiel 29 about Pharaoh king of Egypt, and all Egypt... and that Egypt shall be utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia, no foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited FORTY YEARS, and the land of Egypt shall be desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate [so surrounding countries will also be desolate], and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate FORTY YEARS, and God will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries. At the end of 40 years, God will gather the Egyptians from the people where they were scattered. Then, Ezekiel says, it shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations, for God will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations.

Notice that the context has the 40 year desolation happening before God makes Egypt the basest of kingdoms. I have a few questions for you. When in history has there ever been a 40 year period when no foot of man, nor foot of beast passed through Egypt? When has there been a 40 year period where Egypt's cities and its surrounding nation's cities been desolate? When has God scattered the Egyptian populace through the countries, and then after 40 years, settled them back into Egypt?

It seems fairly clear, to me, that all of this was supposed to happen BEFORE Egypt became the "basest of nations." So, if you can, please show from history that this has occurred.

If you can't do this, I don't see why I should accept this as truly prophecy.

One more thing, someone mentioned the Mameluke dynasty of Egypt as contrary to this prophecy. According to this website, at times, this dynasty held all Palestine and Syria and the holy places of Arabia. http://www.bartleby.com/65/ma/Mamluk.html

You might want to look at this map, http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/maml/maml_d1map.htm. Look at the extent of the Mameluke empire, then tell me that Egypt was the basest of nations, and was to never again rule over the nations.

gregor2

Psalm,

You'll gain a few admirers in this forum if you reappear, admit that you simply cut and paste from a site - the contents of which you have no personal familiarity with, and apologize for the dismissive nature of your retort towards those who clearly are more familiar with the topic than you.

Chuck Rightmire

I have been watching Psalm on several posts now and I notice that she comes in, airily waves her hand about how non-theists dismiss her "facts", makes fantastic claims, says she going to come back later with more, and never does. Is this how it's supposed to operate?

I think that anyone, even I who make no bones about being well read in Biblical studies, or in Bible studies which is a totally different field, who has done any reading at all in the background of the Bible knows that the Bible, from what I learned, I think, in Catholic school was really not put together in draft until the Maccabees which was I think circa 200BCE and not finished until after 70CE. (I'm probably wrong.) That doesn't say that portions of it were not written down before then.

While I cannot put my hands on my source, I understood that the bulk of it was not written down until after the return from Babylon. Before that most of it was oral tradition. And Job, for instance, has the form of a Greek tragedy which would probably date it post-Babylon. I have not heard of any texts earlier than the Dead Sea scrolls, but then I may not have read that issue of Archeology. (And I understand that as well as the James ossuary we now have a John the Baptist cave.) :Cheeky:

Psalm 13:5

Hey everyone.

A few things. First, it was obvious (I thought) that what I posted was a cut and paste, even though I didn't post the link I thought it was so obvious that no one would think I was trying to claim I wrote that. But yes, it was my mistake to fail to post the link saying 'source', that is what I normally do. I've been posting on message boards for around 6 years, so I know of course, about the proper way to do things... but it wasn't until I had posted maybe half of it that I realized it may not be ok to post. I would've done something (maybe either get permission or delete the commentary part) but it was done for me... the whole thing was deleted.

Second, to all the people saying "you didn't reply to my comments"... it was 5 or 6 in the morning when this was going on... I am a night person, but that's a bit ridiculous, there's no way I was going to be answering 20 replies when the morning light was coming in through the window and I was still up from the night before. (stupid move) So, that is why I only replied to a few posts and then left.

Third (and this doesn't have to do with this thread) I don't know if anyone cares but there's something I want to say. I know that I came to this site, knowing full well that I was walking into a den of lions, but... I just want to say that this site really really brings me down. Some of the things I see written here break my heart, and all the intense anti-God, anti-Christian, and just all around negativity in the air not only make me sad but drain all my energy. I can't explain it, but it's as if something just saps me of anything good, and puts a dark cloud over my head. I know I said this before, on another thread, but I might leave, (I'm leaving anyway in a couple weeks) I'm tired of the dark and oppressive feeling to this place, and I know that probably sounds silly to you, but it's true.

There's someone I might ask (who is very knowledgeable of the Bible) to come here and take over on this thread, but I don't know if he'll want to sign up and post here. We'll see.