Johnny Skeptic

Message to Lee Merrill: You claim that logic and reason are part of your belief system, but that is not true. If the Bible said that God would send everyone to hell, you most certainly would not defend and promote the Bible, and you would hope that God would not be able to carry out his threat to send everyone to hell. So, there is no doubt whatsoever that your own self-interest is the deciding factor, not logic and reason.

Evidence that cannot consistently be applied under all circumstances is not evidence at all.

Hypothetical arguments are frequently useful tools that expose invalid arguments. Christians frequently use hypothetical arguments when they feel that is suits their purposes to do so. C. S. Lewis’ ‘Lord, Liar, or Lunatic’ is a good example.

I don't suppose that you would like to have a debate at the GRD forum about your personal experiences, would you? No?, I didn't think so, in spite of the fact that you have said that personal experiences are an important part of your belief system.

Didymus

"Supposed to happen"? They will definitely be fulfilled, therefore they are accurate. What more do you need to know? :devil2:

Didymus

Black Feather

I guess I do not understand why people are so EAGAR to have such horrifying visions in the Bible become real. It's very sadistic.

At times it seems that people are TRYING to make things happen just so they can prove themselves right.

What would happen if none of them occurred? Many would look like fools--or keep shoving the "they will be fullfilled eventually* argument again. The problem is they are prophecies...they don't HAVE to come to light.

And prophecies can be wrong. There are many points in this thread where they are wrong. Saying they haven't happened yet over and over is just making excuses for them being wrong.

Didymus

If the gospels were written to radically fulfill - and incorporate by reference - the LXX, it's not surprising that things got out of hand occasionally. The mis-translation of "young woman" is understandable: Matthew's understanding of the Greek in the LXX may not have been perfect. But "Immanuel" is more egregious; pretty doggone careless, in fact. But the imputed connection floated okay in 85 or so, and it stays on the surface today in Christmas hymns. Among Christians, this discrepancy seems to go almost unrecognized.

On what basis do you think Jesus read Isaiah? Nobody knows whether he read anything at all. Given the ahistoricity of the gospels and their dependence on the OT, he might have been mute for all we know!

Credit for the gospels should be given, not to Jesus, but to the anonymous folks who wrote them. There's no indication in any of the gospels that they were written under instruction from Jesus or anyone else. No gospel author asserts that he ever met Jesus, or that he interviewed any eyewitnesses to the incidents described in the gospels.

OTOH, I think it's a pretty good bet that Jesus trashed some tables on the Temple grounds, and that he menaced innocent folks as he did so. Maybe there was even some swordplay, with a serious injury to an innocent servant. There may have been other offenses too embarrassing to mention, but about that we can only speculate. And perhaps some other circumstances that, in retrospect, would have tended to confirm that this Jesus was the messiah.

The one such event that we have evidence of is that some people - probably horrified by the unusual cruelty and injustice of the execution - had dreams afterwards. These "visions" - and the crucifixion itself - are exceptional in that they're mentioned both by Paul and the gospel writers, and they well could have led to the belief that Jesus was resurrected.

Thus, I think Paul tells us just about everything that was or is known about the historical Jesus. We can only guess about the rest.

Didymus

lee_merrill

That would be a different prediction, now I'm not going to defend every prophecy related to Babylon here in this thread.

Right, I agree.

I do remember them, and remember discussing them, the link I posted above. And a photo does not prove continuous habitation, nor did these photos show houses in the midst of Babylonian ruins.

"Deutschland, Deutschland, uber alles" was a favorite song for this reason?

Well I've only met one. Two, actually. No, three...

That is correct, isn't it, though native Americans also were involved?

When you test and disprove it? Babylon is not, that I know of, rebuilt or reinhabited, but give it the ol' college try! Though you may want to be mindful of Saddam's recent attempt.

Well, do you have any evidence that 1% of Christians will give up Christianity if your arguments here are successful? If any of the skeptics here make their point?

Not if the Qur'an restores the Bible, then all that the Qur'an doesn't say, was added by man, and really needs to be refuted.

Regards,
Lee

Jack the Bodiless

Lee:
No, it's part of the same failed "prophecy".
Then you must renounce Christianity.
Yes, there were houses plainly visible in the background. You're suggesting that the author lied about where those photographs were taken?

Presumably you'd refuse to accept any photograph of "Arab tents in Babylon" on the same basis?

And all the world's historians are lying about Alexander visiting the still-existing Babylon too?

Why are you so desperate to cling to this clearly-failed prophecy?
Adolf Hitler composed "Deutschland Uber Alles" in your Universe?
So, such a claim becomes "non-silly" if you've actually met them? I don't think I've ever met any Koreans (at least, not socially). I guess it's silly to assume that Koreans exist.
Of course. However, the prophecy doesn't refer to "native Egyptians". It says that (the nation of) Egypt will never rule over other nations. Are you still claiming that America has never won a war since the Europeans arrived?
Why should I go to the hassle and expense of "disproving" a prophecy that has already failed?

But, even if it HADN'T already failed, YOU would still be unable to demostrate the fulfillment of this sort of "prophecy". I hereby prophesy that no one-legged man will ever stand on the summit of Mount Rushmore. It's easy to see how such a prophecy could be DISproved: but how could it be PROVED? Can I cite the ongoing absence of a one-legged man on Mount Rushmore as evidence of my supernatural powers?

(...Especially if any historical account of an actual one-legged man on Rushmore can be simply ignored, as you ignore the historical existence of Babylon for centuries after Isaiah: let's just say that my prophecy "hadn't started yet").

Johnny Skeptic

No rational person accepts a challenge without a reasonable expectation of success that they deem to be acceptable. You have never produced any evidence at all what benefits Muslims will likely enjoy if they discredit the Babylon prophecy.

If your challenge makes sense, why isn’t one single well-known Christian in the entire world making it? Why can’t I find one single Bible commentary that agrees with arguments? Why do you continue to refuse to post some opinions of fundamentalist Christian scholars who agree with your position, possibly because you are well aware that none of them agree with your arguments? The U.S. government would laugh at your challenge. So would the Iraqi government.

It is time for me to contact some fundamentalist Christian scholars at some well-known Christian colleges. Which colleges do you recommend that I contact? Four colleges if you please. I want to make sure that I embarrass you with scholars from colleges of your choosing. As I have told you before, I enjoy conducting research.

By the way, since you are well-known at the Theology Web, after I embarrass you with testimonies from fundamentalist Christian scholars, I will post my findings at the Theology Web, and probably some other Christian debate forums as well.

But we need to hear this from Muslims, not you. They know their own theology much better than you do. If my position were the same as yours is, I would have contacted some Muslims long ago and posted my findings.

Based upon how you have debated the Babylon prophecy for a long time, there is every indication that your only interest is trying to influence a few gullible people at a few debate forums and try to save what little reputation that you have left, not to widely publicize your challenge to Muslims. You claim that Muslims are missing a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible by overturning the Babylon prophecy, and yet the only people that you debate the Babylon prophecy with is primarily skeptics. It is you who are missing a golden opportunity by not widely publicizing your challenge. I challenge you to widely publicize your challenge. Not one Muslim in ten million is even aware of your challenge, or didn’t you know that? Well of course you do, and you want to keep it that way. However, that won’t work because I plan to send your challenge to the Iraqi government myself, and I will be sure to tell them you name and that you debate at this forum at the Secular Web. I will also contact some Muslim web sites and invite them to visit this forum to engage you in debates about the Babylon prophecy. You already tried to debate a Muslim. He demolished you, and you quickly left town.

I knew some time ago that the best way to discredit you was to contact fundamentalist Christian scholars and Muslims, but somehow I got sidetracked. Well, now I am back on track, and I will begin my research soon. It will be quite entertaining for the skeptics at this forum to see you try to refute testimonies from fundamentalist Christian scholars and Muslims.

lee_merrill

Then why do you post here, without assurance that at least 1% of the Christians who read your posts, if you make your case, will give up Christianity?

Yes, there were buildings there, but (as I said in the other thread) it would seem unlikely they built amidst the ruins, would the archaeologists protest? They protested Saddam building there. These were probably buildings near Babylon, but not necessarily within the ruins.

Well, I think we've rehashed this enough, or enough at least enough for people to get a clear idea of each position here, and it seems I have not convinced you, nor have you convinced me. Nor has anyone destroyed the Jewish people (despite Hezbollah shouting "death to Israel"), nor has anyone yet rebuilt or reinhabited Babylon, and rebuilding this is quite straightforward, or reinhabiting, so that nobody could deny that this prophecy has failed.

Regards,
Lee

Johnny Skeptic

But let's take you first, and then I will answer your question. You made a challenge to Muslims. You said that they are missing a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible, but you have not made any efforts at all to publicize your challenge where Muslims will read it, although it would be quite easy for you to accomplish this if that is really what you want to do, which obviously you don't. This is because you do not want Muslims to know about your challenge lest they have public debates with you and embarrass you just like the Muslim embarrassed you last year. You withdrew from that debate very quickly. Your only intended audience is a few gullible Christians and potential Christians, NOT Muslims. However, I will issue your challenge to Muslims for you. I will invite some of them to debate you at this forum. Within a week, I will contact Wheaton College and some other well-known fundamentalist Christian colleges. I will be sure to give them your name and where anyone from the colleges who is interested will be able to find you here at the Secular Web. Who better to embarrass you with than fundamentalist Christian scholars and well-prepared Muslims? You are tenacious and dedicated against skeptics at this forum, but let's see how tenacious and dedicated you will be against fundamentalist Christian scholars and well-prepared Muslims. I should have done this long ago. It is the very best way to embarrass you.

You are well aware that your arguments are not popular even among fundamentalist Christians. I assume that you could not find one single Christian at the Secular Web besides you who would give up Christianity if the Babylon prophecy were to be discredited.

Since I do not wish to misrepresent your position, please post a brief summary of your major arguments and I will send your arguments to some fundamentalist Christian scholars and some Muslims. This will be fun, as least for the skeptics at this forum ..

RED DAVE

From helpmabob:
Considering the fact that the most famous bible believer on Earth is George Bush, whose concept of following the promises God made in the bible seem to include mass murder, this assertion is spurious at best.

Question: Do you really think that that nonsense in Matthew about the virgin birth, based on a mistranslation from Hebrew into Greek, is an example of prophecy fulfilled?

RED DAVE