Osbert

Ok, it is speculation because it cannot be proven but we do not live by our five senses alone.
Do you suppose Gorillas and Chimpanzees have an understanding of the reproductive process? I know one cannot be certain one way or the other but what does your intuition prefer?

Anat

I do not have much of an intuition regarding the consciousness of non-human primates. I have seen evidence that they have some consciousness, ability to plan several hours ahead, recognition of self, and then there are the language studies. I don't see the relevance of the question, though. Due to natural selection animals generally behave as though they understand something about their own reproduction. But humans tell stories, so you can know it is actual conscious knowledge rather than instinctive behavior. And humans from many pre-agricultural societies know that copulation is somehow related to conception, though some might get certain details wrong, such as believing that if a pregnant woman has sex with other men they also contribute to the make-up of the future child. (But then some westerners in the 19th century - maybe even 20th?- believed that the father(s) of a woman's previous child(ren) still contributed to the make-up of children fathered later on by other men.)

premjan

Maybe language is an 'instinct' and consciousness is a mirage in terms of its 'internal sensation' and is an evolutionary mechanism for choice-making.

HelmetWB

Are you comparing the ‘understanding’ of Gorillas and Chimpanzees to humans? Surely not—I hope. So-called ‘hunter-gatherers’ have survival skills that I make no pretense of possessing. There is no convincing evidence that these folks lack the genetic accouterments of ‘modern’ humans, including intelligence. My ‘intuition’ is that they are exceptionally observant when it comes to their environment. For example, they appear to know the life-styles of the animals that they hunt; plus, they are deadly hunters. Knowing when the young of these hunted species are born is a major boon for all predators. Humans would observe the life cycle of these animals. Thus, if they couldn’t figure out reproduction by observing their own species, there is good reason to suspect that they would have observed the life cycle of other species long before humans went into the business of herding domesticated varieties.

I am rather partial to Graves’ Goddess, who inspires all poetry and sends shivers down my spine when I hear dogs barking in the distance—or something like that. It is a rather famous quotation from ‘The White Goddess’ but I’m too lazy to look it up. How much of this book I would be inclined to depend on as ‘factual’ is another matter. Didn’t Graves make the claim that he wrote the book in some kind of a manic frenzy, under the direct influence of the Goddess?

Clivedurdle

Sorry?

The Romans and Persians were at war with each other for centuries. In fact, silk was introduced to the Roman Empire following one battle when captured Persian silk war banners were taken back to Rome. Captured Roman soldiers ended up in China.

Are you saying with clear evidence of technological and human transfers, transfers of ideas and religions did not happen?

Osbert

I am not sure I understand what you mean, will you thin my thickness with an example?

Osbert

I am not sure what I am comparing, I am convinced that human beings were not always aware of the equation sex equals reproduction; my guestimate is that when they first began to pen and herd animals the penny dropped. I am further convinced that they admired the Bull, the Ram, the Ass etc. for their sexual potency rather than their esthetic beauty. When do you think they twigged? Do you believe they always knew?
(I don't remember the quotation from the Goddess either, I don't remember reading he wrote the book in a manic frenzy)

Osbert

Are you thinking of anything specific here that you could illustrate further?

Toto

Wikipedia:

The White Goddess: A Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth (or via: amazon.co.uk) is searchable on Amazon.

Anat

Osbert, in your original post you suggested that there was a time when humans did not know how babies were conceived, that they learned this fact after observing domesticated animals and that this brought about the worship of gods represented by male animals. I doubted your premises based on information anthropologists collected from hunter-gatherer societies that were first contacted by others in modern times. These people who never had domesticated animals to observe still have culturally transmited knowledge about what causes conception.