aa5874

In antiquity it appears that writing about a "Jerusalem crowd" may have have been just as plausible or as fictitious as "virgin births" and "resurrections."

LogicandReason

In your opinion, is the entire NT a legend that grows through oral transmission? Is there any part of it that you think genuine?

LogicandReason

And they make their hero a 'Pharisee?'

aa5874

I use Joseph Smith of Mormonism as my model for how a religion may start.

Some unknown writer made up a story about some God, he may have been a doomsday preacher, people believe. Sometime later, others write stories about the God and start other sects based on the original story.

I think the original story may have been written during the time of Trajan, or after the writings of Josephus, and was not based on any oral tradition with respect to a character called Jesus.

One man writes a story about some God, in the 19th century, before being jailed and assasinated, before the end of the 20th century, there are millions of believers.

Likewise with the Jesus story, a story is written, maybe at the end of the 1st century, about some God and in the 4th century, it is the official Religion of the Roman Empire.

LogicandReason

You make some excellent points. After reading Josephus' Antiquities and Wars I can see how that is possible. All the historical anchors in the NT stories are in Josephus and we know when that was written. I like your argument.

As to Paul, or the writers, this is just a counterpoint to Jewish progenitors?

bacht

You mean Paul? If he was invented, then Marcion or whoever created him could attribute anything to his bio. Why would it be strange to present a convert who was a former enemy? Maybe it was the author of Acts who set up the drama of Paul's turnaround, and the epistle writers added to it.

The gospel writers certainly paint the Pharisees in negative terms, in spite of their similarities to Christian belief. This could be a reflection of enmity between post-revolt Rabbis and Christians.

aa5874

The writings of Josephus do indeed seems to provide the historical anchors for the Jesus stories, it is for that reason why I have placed the entire NT after the writings of Josephus.

Even so-called prophecies of Jesus appear to be found in the writings of Josephus.

Antiquities of the Jews 20.8.6 And this is Jesus with a similar prophecy on his way or at Mount Olives, just as the Egyptian prophet.

Mark13.1-4 The writings of Josephus do indeed appear to have the historical anchors for the Jesus stories.

LogicandReason

Good observation

LogicandReason

Which make me continue to deduce that the Pauline epistles are closer to a historical representation of the thinking of the early church and the Gospels are written to enforce one groups doctrine of another by placing words of agreement in the mouth of a historical Jesus.

bacht

I still lean towards an eschatological MJ vs the gospel HJ, but who knows which came first? Jews were still writing apocalyptic after the first revolt (eg. II Esdras). If the Revelation of John reflects primitive Christianity, they apparently started with a heavenly or mythological saviour yet to make his first earthly advent.