Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SlowTrainComing · 07-10-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It is generally agreed that Josephus wrote in the late first century. It is generally agreed that his manuscript was copied by Christians, and that there were a few interpolations and alterations.

It's not "generally agreed," it's recorded academically and universally understood that Antiquities of the Jews was published in 94 A.D.

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So if you are going to claim that you have the original of a highly disputed section such as the one that you quote, yes, you do need the original manuscript, which you call an ancient relic.

Again, the only things disputed in that work are Josephus' claims of Christ's divinity. At no point has anyone challenged his claims that Jesus walked the earth.

Keith&Co. · 07-10-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Let's recap. I was asked to present historical accounts of Christ's existence due to the BIZARRE argument of "Jesus was never alive!!" with which I've been presented.

How bizarre. I don't see "Jesus was never alive!!" in the OP.

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a) Internet repostings of such writings don't count. Only the original historic scrolls will be accepted.

Post where you were told that you needed to supply the original historic scrolls would be...?

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b) My definition of "contemporaneous" is unacceptable, because enemies of Christianity decided to help the Christian cause along by making up a fake person named Jesus.

Post where your definition is said to be unnacceptable?
Post where your definition of contemporary is connected to an anti-christain conspiracy to help christainity?

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Just to ease this along... what evidence WILL be accepted?

Maybe you could just tell us what thread you're reading?

Toto · 07-10-2008, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

...
Obviously, it's subjective. I'm personally willing to consider something within a few decades of Christ's lifetime to be contemporaneous with His life. The kicker is that a handful of these references were made by ENEMIES of Him and of His faith. I fail to see why they would record His existence if He had never existed and they wished to squash His following.

Dude - lay your cards on the table. What are these references? How exactly do you determine their dates?

Otherwise you are just wasting time here and bringing further discredit on your faith.

Keith&Co. · 07-10-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Obviously, it's subjective. I'm personally willing to consider something within a few decades of Christ's lifetime to be contemporaneous with His life.

Wow. How hard was that?

Um, is it okay to assume that 'few' means 'three or four?'

A couple of decades would be two, few generally means three or so.

SlowTrainComing · 07-10-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Dude - lay your cards on the table. What are these references? How exactly do you determine their dates?

I use the dates upon which every source agrees.

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Otherwise you are just wasting time here and bringing further discredit on your faith.

I see what you're going for there, but I won't be buying in.

Toto · 07-10-2008, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

....

Again, the only things disputed in that work are Josephus' claims of Christ's divinity. At no point has anyone challenged his claims that Jesus walked the earth.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Just because you have not researched the question doesn't mean that no one has challenged this text.

Have you read this comprehensive discussion of that section? Kirby on the Testimonium

It may be that Josephus wrote something there about someone named Jesus, but the case is not so clear cut.

SlowTrainComing · 07-10-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith&Co.

Wow. How hard was that?

Well, I tried to answer it several times. :Cheeky:

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Um, is it okay to assume that 'few' means 'three or four?'

A couple of decades would be two, few generally means three or so.

In this case, up to perhaps 6 or 7. It's entirely relative to the times. Christ's life was a pretty big event in the early 1st Century, so in that case, I'm willing to accept admissions from a wide timeframe as historical evidence. Just as I'm willing to consider Red Grange and Barry Sanders "contemporaneous" as NFL running backs. If my hypothetical great-grandfather tells me about Red Grange's exploits in the 20s and 30s, I'm going to take his word on it.

Jeffrey Gibson · 07-10-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

It is generally agreed that Josephus wrote in the late first century. It is generally agreed that his manuscript was copied by Christians, and that there were a few interpolations and alterations.

It's not "generally agreed," it's recorded academically and universally understood that Antiquities of the Jews was published in 94 A.D.

May we have some evidence for this assertion please? Who in academia says so? is there no scholarly dissent to the 94 CE date?

Jeffrey

Toto · 07-10-2008, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Dude - lay your cards on the table. What are these references? How exactly do you determine their dates?

I use the dates upon which every source agrees.

Quote:

Otherwise you are just wasting time here and bringing further discredit on your faith.

I see what you're going for there, but I won't be buying in.

I repeat: what are the sources that you claim support your position?

In particular, the name of ancient author and a reference to what he wrote.

Toto · 07-10-2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowTrainComing

.... Christ's life was a pretty big event in the early 1st Century, so in that case, I'm willing to accept admissions from a wide timeframe as historical evidence. ...

I think you just assumed what you are trying to prove.

If Jesus' life was such a big event, why is there no record of it that can be reliably dated before 70 CE?

Most scholars have to retreat at this point and say that Jesus was actually a minor figure in a small remote part of the Roman Empire, so it's quite understandable that no one wrote about him.

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