Pyro-Osteon

LOL!!!


But seriously, why is it that fifty million people died in WWII but when someone asks if the holocaust happened it is assumed automatically that the subject is dead Jews? Demonstrates conclusively the totalitarian control media ownership exercises over memory.

jbernier

I am not entirely sure is so funny about the Holocaust...

Probably because Holocaust denial and Neo-nazism have tended to go hand-in-hand. I would suggest few people have a greater vested interest in proving the Holocaust did not happen then Neo-nazis and anti-semites in general.

J-D

Are you saying that people have lost their jobs because of things like this? I haven't heard this before. Can you give more details?

I haven't heard about this before, either. I don't even know what 'the '89 case' was. Can you give more details?

Are you suggesting that there are places (on the Internet and in real life) where it's acceptable to criticise Christians and Muslims (and Christianity and Islam, which is not the same thing), but none where it's acceptable to criticise Judaism (and Jews, which again is not the same thing)? I deny that. There's no end of criticism of Judaism and Jews on the Internet, and in real life. Admittedly, there are places where it's not accepted, but there are also places where it is. Lots of them. And what does 'practically a hate crime' mean? Has anybody been prosecuted? If something is not a crime, how can it be 'practically a crime'? Do you mean that people object to criticism of Judaism, but nobody objects to criticism of Christianity and Islam? I deny that also.

The library has comparatively little critique of any non-Christian religion, for reasons which are explained on the site.

Your post doesn't sound like the post of somebody who is easily intimidated. How have you been intimidated? By whom? Has anybody actually threatened you? If not, what do you fear?

J-D

Because the term 'Holocaust' was coined specifically to refer to the attempted extermination of the Jews. If you want to coin another new term for deaths in the Second World War in general, you can, and if other people find it useful, it will catch on.

And also because nobody is attempting to deny that the Second World War happened.

Epinoia

I believe that specific figure came from http://marwenmedia.com/articles_imag...tofIsrael.html

<quote>If you add its foreign aid grants and loans, plus the approximate totals of grants to Israel from other parts of the U.S. federal budget, Israel has received since 1949 a grand total of $84.8 billion, excluding the $10 billion in U.S. government loan guarantees it has drawn to date.
And if you calculate what the U.S. has had to pay in interest to borrow this money to give to Israel, the cost of Israel to U.S. taxpayers rises to $134.8 billion, not adjusted for inflation.

Put another way, the nearly $14,630 every one of 5.8 million Israelis had received from the U.S. government by October 31, 1997, cost American taxpayers $23,241 per Israeli. That’s $116,205 for every Israeli family of five.[/quote]

To the extent I have looked into this, this does not seem that far off let alone surprising. Admittedly, though, the numbers themselves generate arguments that are beyond the scope of this thread.

seebs

Those numbers are virtually meaningless as presented, and I would feel safe disregarding them as pure propaganda.

Epinoia

But that is still not a good reason to not criticize them when we criticize everyone else. The "race not religion" argument gets dragged out to make menorahs officially secular and creches not. Then perhaps someone, say the UN, equates Zionism with racism and presto, it's religion over race among other things. No fair. I call obvious B.S Jews may want it to refer only or primarily to dead Jews, but as the term has evolved, it also refers to the nearly as many dead gypsies, gays, etc. that faced the same predicament. That near-parity, though, isn't readily apparent in the taxpayer-funded Holocaust Memorial Museum of DC or most any other such institution in a metropolitan area near you.

There are these museums, and the modules required in public schools, and just so you won't forget, more shoah every week or more at a newspaper or magazine or theater or exhibit hall near you. For years and then decades, I thought it really was about addressing man's inhumanity to man and "he who saves one life saves the world entire" as opposed to "he who saves one JEWISH life." Where Holocaust promoters stand is increasingly obvious, as is the obvious pity play and coercion on behalf of America's most educated and wealthy group and its beatified boutique country, one that I am recently informed has the support of 96.15 percent of Jews. That does somewhat dampen the "not all Jews" line, though it's technically true. No, I'm not jealous. Yes, I am mad. I'm also quite sad at being so had. Oh well. As they say, never again.

jbernier

There is something to your critique: The Holocaust was not only about anti-semitism. However, anti-semitism certainly was a part of it. Moreover, I would argue that no single one group was as profoundly affected by the Holocaust as were Jews. European Jewish civilization was virtually exterminated. Two centuries ago Eastern Europe was a vital centre of Jewish culture; now the centres are New York, Montreal, Jerusalem. Is not simply that all the Jews moved from Eastern Europe - they were exterminated. I am not convinced that one can find another group which was transformed as deeply as a result of the Holocaust as the Jewish people. Beyond that, the Jewish people were always the central target of persecution in the Third Reich. Gypsies and gays were, indeed, killed in the Holocaust. Howevver, Hitler sought an Europe without Jews with a particular ferocity that was not much matched in the way he went after gypsies, gays, etc.

Epinoia

That fear is certainly unhealthy when the Holocaust is foisted as a coercive barrier to the same type of frank discussion everyone else is subjected to. Moreover, that fear compromises the type of historical inquiry every other event is subjected to--especially as it extends to laws that put fear in people for discussing, let alone advocating, any rendition of any aspect of the Holocaust that doesn't jibe with what the ADL/AJC/CJC would approve. As you're in Canada, do you happen to know what it was Ernst Zundel did that landed him in jail? I'm not asking whether or not he's a "hater" ("racist," "anti-Semite, blah blah, whatever). What I want to know is why he's there, and particularly if the reason includes actions beyond any speech.

First, I envy you your vocation; you are highly fortunate. The academic corpus would indeed suffer if Jews/Judaism were criticized more harshly and/or frequently in the contemporary literature. The opposite is also true. Now granted, my own exposure to the field is largely the advanced-beginner mainstream of Crossan, Armstrong et. al. Not to pick on them in particular, but both Crossan's Historical Jesus and Armstrong's A History of God both tiptoe around about Jews/Judaism/Israel way more than, say Christians/Catholics/America or Muslims/Sunni/Arabia (in the case of Armstrong). Not only is it arguably preferential in its application, parenthetical "sensitivity"-type language can detract and even obsfucate the point the authors were trying to make. IOW, after wading through "Judaism has understandably suffered from blahdy-blah... and "in no way am I advocating any dah dee dah..." and "it goes without saying that dah dah dah shouldn't be repeated yaddy yah...," it can be hard to keep in mind the original point, which was what again?

It isn't just them. It's just about everyone. While selective a priori incuriosity is worse, plain old bad writing is also...bad. I like having things in common with others, too, but neither empathy nor fear should stifle freethinking inquiry any more than encourage preferential reverence.

This is why I keep hammering on the ADL-speak I took apart (link on closed Machivelli thread). It is beyond disingenous to first say criticism is acceptable, then to add qualifiers that progressively disqualify arguably almost any such criticism as a bias against Israel and Jews. It is outrageous that this group not only gets away with but can actually foist such intolerant intimidation tactics onto a general public that generally wishes to be tolerant. It is disappointing that Jews obviously overwhelmingly support this as opposed to speaking out, but perhaps it is not surprising. They are, after all, just as selfish as anyone else.

First, the presence of slashes as forum shorthand for "and, or, and/or" does not imply unawareness that Judaism, Jews and Israel are not the same thing. The slashes indicate my hand is somewhat tired.

Second I absolutely did not assert that 1) places IRL and virtual exist in which Xtianity/Xtians and Islam/Muslims can be criticized and 2) there is no place whatsoever to criticize Jews/Judaism. The first is nonetheless true. As to (2), obviously, places exist whatsoever that discriminatingly relish criticism and insults of Jews, Judaism or Israel. (See, my hand is tired, so I'm going back to the old way now.) Stormfront.org is one. Jewwatch.com is another. The issue is that criticism of Jews/Judaism is largely relegated to such sites along with just insults. While there can be overlap, the two are largely not the same. Look, a lot of what gets posted at such sites should stay there. There simply isn't much rational discussion to be had around "the Jew has evil wired into his DNA." Nor is such a board very conducive to freethought. My guess is that many freethinkers would either (1) elect to discuss J/J/I or anything else somewhere else or (2) be advised to go elsewhere. That should not be a problem. It becomes one to the extent that discussions on "why I hate Christianity" or arguments that Islam is a deleterious influence routinely unfold in any number of more mainstream sites and that parallel discussions around Judaism often cannot, despite the fact that it this merely would indicate equal opportunity. Similarly, if it's good enough for America or Arabia, Christians or Muslims, it is good enough for Israel or Jews. Preferential reverence occurs insofar as it is far more unusual for a negative assertion to even be broached on Jews/Judaism/Israel, particularly without a buttload of sensitivity caveats. On the very rare occasions that anything involving a frank discussion begins to transpire, someone shows up with the blunt goal of torpedoing dialogue. They may even brag about it. Sadly, they most often succeed. Smugly satisfied, they step back while those who actually wanted to have a discussion are left yet again with the remnants of modded-down postings, thread closings and sometimes bannings. I'm sick of it, and to the extent such tactics take place on behalf of Jews/Judaism/Israel, each or all should be embarassed by it and saying so. (I certainly would.) The extent to which this does or does not occur also does not escape notice.

Read Norm Finkelstein's prologue to the Holocaust Industry. Also, check the archives at JDO.org. There's more. A lot more. But I don't wish to derail the thread.

See the ADL/Menorah thread in Secular Lifestyle.

For once I missed it. Please indicate where on the site these reasons are, and even better, what they say.

Believe me, intimidation, doublespeak and so forth had me going for a long time. Decades, in fact. In that regard, I suspect I am not unusual at all. Speaking up, too, should not be unusual, nor unusually discouraged.

In a perfect world, I would tell you. In the world we have, we have ADL and JDO and the like. See my post above.

F--cking nothing, not anymore. You know why? There is absolutely nothing with treating people the same. Being considerably behind on J/J and to a lesser degree I, this could take a while.

Epinoia

Anti-Semitism undoubtedly played a role in the Holocaust. I would not deliberately assert otherwise. Did I? If so, this was totally inadvertent.

As written, you are correct. Having said that, taking the oft-cited figures of 6M dead Jews and 5M dead everyone else, that still means that about 45 percent of victims get maybe 3, 5 percent at most of the memorialization going on.