TedM

If Paul lived, one can assert that he was consistent in any given passage with any other passage attributed to him. Paul's writings show a great familiarity with the OT, and Messianic passages.

You have missed a theme aa brought up, which was to imply that Paul's reference in 1 Cor 15 to the resurrection on the third day as 'according to the Scriptures' could NOT have been a reference to the OT, but was in fact a reference to the Gospel of John--thus strengthening his argument that Pauline writings were after GJohn and in the 2nd century.

I disputed that claim as highly speculative and provided the evidence against it, as I see it. I consider aa's inability to see how Christians could see that a passage about a future time in which the Chosen would be healed, revived, raised up on the third day could be applied to their own salvation through Christ's resurrection on the third day, to be an indication of inflexibility.

Iskander

I know Christians do that, but I don’t understand why you are making statements which you know to be false. The explanation that Christians believe these falsehoods to be true is not a sufficient reason to bore aa with it.

TedM

You may have missed the context. Aa was trying to show that Paul wrote after GJohn by claiming that 1 Cor 15 was referencing GJohn when it said the raising on the 3rd day was 'according to the scriptures'. He claimed that could not POSSIBLY been a reference to an OT scripture, but was in fact referencing 'newer' scriptures. I showed that he is full of hooey.

Iskander

AA is right. You are saying that Paul would have misinterpreted Hosea because certain American Christians happen to do just that.

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But, Paul would have understood Hosea as I do.

The link you have provided in support of a messianic interpretation in the Targum is not helpful. It simply repeats your statement and adds nothing to it.

aa5874

What a load of BS. You merely PARROTED a sentence and did NOT even find out what is written in the Targum with respect to Hosea 6.

I did your homework and Exposed that Hosea 6.2 was considered to refer to the end of the state after 2000 years--Nothing at all about Jesus.

1. Up to now you have not shown what the Targum actually states.

2. Up to now you have NOT shown that the Pauline writer used Hosea 6.1-2 to support the claim that Jesus died for our sins and resurrected on the third.

3. Up to now you have NOT shown that early Christians used Hosea 6.1-2 to support the claim that Jesus died for our sins and resurrected on the third.

Now, in the earliest Jesus story, gMark, there is NO statement at all--None at all--that Jesus died for our Sins.

If gMark is history, Jesus did NOT died for our Sins.


You are NOT clear. You are confused. The Pauline writer did NOT make reference to Hosea 6.1-2 when it was claimed Jesus died for our sins and resurrected .

You wont find the Blasphemy that a man died for the Sins of Jews in Hebrew Scripture-NEVER--Do some research.

The Pauline Revealed Gospel is Blasphemy and was derived from entities WITHOUT Flesh and blood. Effectively Paul Made it up.

Composer

Hello,

You wrote in part: " ‘messianic prophecies’, but each one is a worthless invention after the alleged event . . . . "

Would it be possible for you to Start a Thread & explain in detail what evidence there is for this?

The whole bible stuff especially regarding alleged Fulfilled Prophecy I concur is BS, and I am trying to build myself as much evidence proving it is all BS!

Can you help please?

Many thanks

TedM

Really? I take it he understood Isaiah 8:14 just like you do too, huh? It was another Messianic passage, Iskander. Paul actually quotes the OT and applies it to Jesus himself in Romans 9:33. It can't be made any more clear than that. You can't have it both ways...

So what? IF you want to research it more go right ahead. It won't help you any because the Targum isn't early Christianity. You think the Targum's views on all the other OT Messianic passages matched those of early Christianity? Of course not.

The point is that Hosea 6:2 is about being healed (from sins) and rising up on the 3rd day. If you can't see a parallel to the resurrection of Jesus there, then you are an idiot. Of course you see it but somehow you think the early Christians couldn't. :huh:

Early Christian doctrine is rampant with references to Isaiah 52, the Suffering Servant passage. Yet you and aa seem to not be able to see the parallel.
Incredible.

Has it never occurred to you that much of what is attributed to Jesus was possibly created from the OT passages that sounded Messianic to people in the 1st century? aa even argued that GMark came from the OT passages, yet he is close-minded when it comes to finding OT influences with regard to the most important aspects of the entire story--the crucifixion, and resurrection. Acts is full of allusions to the earliest Christians searching the OT for proof that Jesus' fulfilled Messianic prophecy. The desire to make such links-even if they weren't accurate-was extremely critical. Even if you don't believe Acts was historical you have to recognize WHY ACTS SAID THAT, and the implications of it. It's simple: EARLY CHRISTIANS WERE CONVINCED THAT JESUS FULFILLED OT PROPHECY. If aa can't apply that to the most important part of the message about Jesus -- his death and resurrection for sins, then he has more than one screw loose.

Christianity's claims of fulfilled prophecies never would have been made in the first place if there wasn't some resemblance between the OT passages and the portrayal of Jesus' sayings and doings. Many of the Messianic passages are about a future time in which someone wonderful comes to lead Israel to a period of prosperity and peace, and/or salvation from their sins. Hosea 6:2 is just another of many many such passages. The parallels to Jesus' portrayal and role are obvious to anyone willing to open their eyes and minds a bit.

Iskander

No, there is no parallel with the resurrection. I know Christians do that sort of thing, but it is all nothing but make believe.

So what? You say. I will tell you what: I need to see the evidence.

The suffering servant, the virgin of Isa, the Lucifer thing and so forth, I know about that, but Paul did not know any of that.

Iskander

Messianic prophecy is a very tiring subject.

In general all what is needed is a good translation with notes. I use the new oxford annotated bible and the Jewish study bible with the Ignatius Catholic study bible New Testament.

Sheshbazzar

The evidence lies within the Gospel texts themselves, and the accountings of the times, days, Sabbaths, and hours they provide.

Awareness of the conflict only becomes apparent upon careful study of both 'Old' and 'New' Testament 'Passover' sequences.
Locating the first day of the first month of the year (Exodus 12:2) and keeping careful track of the days and the hours, comparing both the Passover tale as it is recorded and commanded in Exodus, and commanded in Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Joshua, with what is provided to us in the Gospels, and with what has been the recorded 'Jewish' practices for these last two thousand years.

Most Christians remain unaware, or if aware, simply ignore the time contradictions in these texts, being indoctrinated against the Laws of YHWH by their interpretations of Pauline doctrines, they do not ever actually take the time nor expend any effort to 'observe' nor 'keep' The Passover, that 'night of vigils unto YHWH ... to be observed by ALL 'the children of Israel' in their generations.' (Exodus 12:42)

I come by way of a Messianic and Torah observant congregation that keeps The Passover and The Feast of Unleavened observance in its appointed season from year to year.
I have actually assembled with others for years on these dates, have yearly planned my daily schedule through those weeks, and have lived through and counted off these days, day by day, and hour by precious hour, one by one, marking and recalling each one by those events recorded in The Bible in its proper time.

If you had sought for me on the evening on the fourteenth day of the month of Abib, you would have found me in the midst of the Assembly washing the feet of my brethren.

If you had sought me out at the midnight hour, or in the morning watch, you would have found me awake, in the place where YHWH has placed his name, keeping The Vigil unto YHWH, studying, remembering and accounting the time, and on into that following morning, at the third hour, at the sixth hour, and at the ninth hour.

And in the end of the twelfth hour, entering upon the fifteenth day of Abib, it being the High Sabbath of YHWH's rest, on the three hundred thirty seventh hour of the year, and of the month of Abib, even as Messiah slept, I have taken my sleep, believing that I shall rise again, and shall yet see the morning of that third day.

Go. Observe and KEEP The Passover of YHWH and The Feast of Unleavened yourself these next seven years. Then come again, and tell me how much you don't know.



I am Sheshbazzar the Hebrew. It is MY culture, I embrace it, and I pay close attention to it.