Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 05-07-2008, 01:19 PM

He is an acknowledged expert on Caananite religions. Might not his views on xianity be very significant?

Quote:

Lucian's De Dea Syra (“Concerning the Syrian Goddess”) is of enduring value for an understanding of Canaanite religion.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/...#ref=ref559722

What did he write about xianity?

Quote:

Lucian
Greek writer Greek Lucianos, Latin Lucianus

Of the 80 prose works traditionally attributed to Lucian, about 10 are spurious.

The writings of Lucian are outstanding for their mordant and malicious wit, embodying a sophisticated and often embittered critique of the shams and follies of the literature, philosophy, and intellectual life of his day.

Lucian satirized almost every aspect of human behaviour. One of his favourite topics is the human failure to realize the transience of greatness and wealth. This Cynic theme permeates his dialogue Charon, while in the Dialogues of the Dead and other pieces, the Cynic philosopher Menippus is made to jibe at kings and aristocrats, reminding them how much more they have lost by death than he.

In Timon Lucian recounts how Timon, after impoverishing himself by his generosity and becoming a hermit, is restored to wealth, once again to be surrounded by toadies to whom he gives short shrift.

Other human frailties Lucian satirized are the folly of bargaining with the gods by sacrifices, crying over spilt milk when bereaved, and the love of telling or listening to strange tales.

In True History, which starts by warning the reader that its events are completely untrue and impossible, Lucian describes a voyage that starts on the sea, continues in the skies, and includes visits to the belly of a whale and to heaven and hell; the tale is a satirical parody of all those fantastic travelers’ tales that strain human credulity ...

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/350566/Lucian

Clivedurdle · 05-08-2008, 08:33 AM

Quote:

it will be plain from the short sketch of his life that he was singularly attracted by the spirit of curiosity to obtain all possible information about the strange Oriental cults among which he had been brought up

Quote:

As the tract De Dea Syria is mainly descriptive it is unnecessary here to enter fully into Lucian's views of religion and philosophy. It may, however, be remarked that the belief in religion, whether as represented by the ancient and national gods of Rome and Greece, or by the Oriental deities, had lost its hold on both the educated and uneducated classes. The disappearance of religion was succeeded by superstition in various forms, which was exploited to their own advantage by such charlatans and

adventurers as Alexander and Peregrinus Proteus. Lucian's attitude is that of a detached and scornful observer, who, however, in spite of his contempt for the silliness of his fellow men, sees the pathos of human affairs, and would fain make them regard conduct as the standard of life.

Quote:

Lucian has heard of Christianity, but seems to have regarded it as an ordinary Oriental cult. He refers to it twice; the first passage is in the memoirs of Alexander, in which the false prophet is alleged to

p. 36
have proclaimed: "If any atheist, Christian, or Epicurean has come to spy out the sacred rites, let him flee"; and in the same tract (§ 25) he couples Christians and atheists. The second passage is in the treatise on the death of Peregrinus the impostor, who, according to Lucian, was a renegade from Christianity and indeed had occupied an important post among that community. The translation is Sir Richard Jebb's.
"He had thoroughly learnt," says Lucian, "the wondrous philosophy of the Christians, having consorted in Palestine with their priests and scribes. What would you expect? He speedily showed that they were mere children in his hands: he was their prophet, the chief of their religious fraternity (θιασιάρχης), the convener of their meetings (συναγωγεύς) --in short, everything to them. Some of their books he interpreted and elucidated; many of them he wrote himself. They regarded him as a god, made him their law-giver, and adopted him as their champion (προστάτην ἐπεγράφοντο)."
Concerning their tenets he says, "They still reverence that great one (τὸν μέγαν ἐκεῖνον), the man who was crucified in Palestine because he brought this new mystery into the world. The poor creatures have persuaded themselves that they will be altogether immortal and live for ever; wherefore they despise death and in many cases give themselves to it voluntarily. Then their first Law-giver (i.e., Christ) persuaded them that they were all brethren, when they should have taken the step of renouncing all the Hellenic gods, and worshipping that crucified one, their sophist, and living after his laws. So they despise all things alike (i.e., all dangers and sufferings) and hold their goods in common: though they have received such traditions without any certain warrant. If then an artful impostor comes among them, an adroit man of the world, he very soon enriches himself by making these simple folk his dupes."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/luc/tsg/tsg05.htm

JoeWallack · 05-11-2008, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

What did he write about xianity?

JW:
Was Lucian the author of "Mark"?:

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lucian/peregrinus.htm

Quote:

1. Unlucky Peregrinus,1 or, as he delighted to style himself, Proteus,2 has done exactly what Proteus in Homer did.3 After turning into everything for the sake of notoriety and achieving any number of transformations, here at last he has turned into fire; so great, it seems, was the love of notoriety that possessed him.
...
And now your genial friend has got himself carbonified after the fashion of Empedocles, except that the latter at least tried to escape observation when he threw himself into the crater,4 while this gentleman waited for that one of the Greek festivals which draws the greatest. crowds, heaped up a very large pyre, and leaped into it before all those, witnesses; he even addressed the Greeks on the subject not many days before his venture.
...
11. “It was then that he learned the wondrous lore of the Christians, by associating with their priests and scribes in Palestine. And—how else could it be?—in a trice he made them all look like children, for he was prophet, cult-leader, head of the synagogue, and everything, all by himself. He inter preted and explained some of their books and even composed many, and they revered him as a god, made use of him as a lawgiver, and set him down as a protector, next after that other, to be sure, whom11 they still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world.
...
[etc. etc. etc.]

The dates (early second century) looks about right too.

Joseph

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

Clivedurdle · 05-11-2008, 11:30 AM

That would be wonderful if he were the author of Mark!

gurugeorge · 05-11-2008, 01:21 PM

Possibly relevant: essay by Detering outlining the idea that "Peregrinus" was Lucian's take on Marcion.

RParvus · 05-11-2008, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

Possibly relevant: essay by Detering outlining the idea that "Peregrinus" was Lucian's take on Marcion.

Another possibility: Peregrinus is Ignatius of Antioch. This was argued by Daniel Volter in his "Polycarp und Ignatius und die ihnen zugeschriebenen Briefe." Another who made the same identification was Jaques Schwartz in an article entitled "Du Testament de Levi au Discours Veritable de Celse."

In my book A New Look at the Letters of Ignatius of Antioch and other Apellean Writings (or via: amazon.co.uk) I make the case that Peregrinus wrote the Ignatian letters and that they were later edited/interpolated by a proto-Orthodox Christian.

Roger Parvus

Toto · 05-11-2008, 07:25 PM

R Parvus: you don't have to keep dropping hints

- feel free to start a new thread on your book. I saw some discussion on the JM list in passing.

The book can be downloaded in Adobe e-book format here, with a preview.

For those with access to the JM list:

A thread starts here:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusM.../message/29227 or
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusM.../message/37914

note:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusM.../message/38395

Clivedurdle · 05-12-2008, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RParvus

Quote:

Originally Posted by gurugeorge

Possibly relevant: essay by Detering outlining the idea that "Peregrinus" was Lucian's take on Marcion.

Another possibility: Peregrinus is Ignatius of Antioch. This was argued by Daniel Volter in his "Polycarp und Ignatius und die ihnen zugeschriebenen Briefe." Another who made the same identification was Jaques Schwartz in an article entitled "Du Testament de Levi au Discours Veritable de Celse."

In my book A New Look at the Letters of Ignatius of Antioch and other Apellean Writings I make the case that Peregrinus wrote the Ignatian letters and that they were later edited/interpolated by a proto-Orthodox Christian.

Roger Parvus

What are your views on Detering's "working hypothesis"? Is there any possibility of a chain?

Marcion is Peregrinus is Ignatius?

RParvus · 05-13-2008, 04:56 PM

Quote:

What are your views on Detering's "working hypothesis"? Is there any possibility of a chain?

Marcion is Peregrinus is Ignatius?

I don’t think there was a chain. I think Peregrinus was the author of the Ignatians and that he was a follower of Apelles. Although Apelles was at first a disciple of Marcion, he broke with him at some point and founded his own sect. He rejected several Marcionite doctrines including ditheism, docetism, and Marcion’s canon and sexual asceticism.

Dr. Detering has a copy of my book and has kindly put up a blurb for it on his radikalkritik website. I am hoping that once he has read the book he will give his opinion.

Roger Parvus

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05-11-2008, 11:30 AM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	That would be wonderful if he were the author of Mark!

05-11-2008, 01:21 PM	#5
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	Possibly relevant: essay by Detering outlining the idea that "Peregrinus" was Lucian's take on Marcion.

05-11-2008, 07:25 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	R Parvus: you don't have to keep dropping hints - feel free to start a new thread on your book. I saw some discussion on the JM list in passing. The book can be downloaded in Adobe e-book format here, with a preview. For those with access to the JM list: A thread starts here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusM.../message/29227 or http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusM.../message/37914 note: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusM.../message/38395

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