aa5874

The moral of the story is, if Prince Charles exist then Jesus must exist.

andrewcriddle

FWIW Gerald Gardner would seem to count as the charismatic individual who founded (or invented or rewrote) Wicca.

Andrew Criddle

youngalexander

Princess Diana Cult
toto cult
Chris Weimer Cult
non-existent cult
non cult
_

Is retrojecting twentieth century phenomena relevant to first century history?

andrewcriddle

According to this article http://alexm.here.ru/mirrors/www.ent...liade/196.html
an islander named Manehivi was claiming to be John Frum in 1941.

The real issue may be whether there was a single original John Frum or whether this was a title claimed by various islanders in the 1940's.

Andrew Criddle

Chris Weimer

What was charismatic about him?

andrewcriddle

What do you mean by Charismatic ?

Gardner was able to persuade a substantial number of people to buy into his brand of enlightenment largely on his say-so.

In Durkheim's categories he counts as a religious leader exercising authority by virtue of personal charisma. (As distinct from traditional or institutional/rational legitimisation of his authority.)

Andrew Criddle

Solo

Those wee Max Weber's categories, Andrew.

Jiri

Vorkosigan

Ooops. But I didn't. In fact, I instanced two contradictory views. Do you think I take them both to heart?

Ummm....no. Cargo cults existed all over the S. Pacific in the late 19th century. What we have here is evolutionary, not revolutionary, accreting new things and redefining itself as it goes along.

BTW, speaking of historical knowledge there, bud, WWII in the Pacific began in December of 1941. No cargo cult could have begun during WWII in 1940 in the S. Pacific because it hadn't begun yet.

Doh.

And as for beginning in the 1940s, that is clearly wrong.

http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issue...lion_point.php

• "Cargo cult" is an anthropologists' coinage of the early 1950s, describing South Pacific religious beliefs that place extraordinary faith in mysteriously arriving commodities. The mid-century anthropologists who first documented cargo cults date their beginnings prior to WWII, meaning that by the early 1900s these cults were touting a doctrine that bizarrely foresaw events of the 1940s. Scholarship agrees that the chronology is correct—cargo predictions predated the arrival of the American military—but it offers no logical explanation for the coincidental timing.20 What is clear is that when the military arrived, cargo cult predictions were literally realized. This made fertile ground for wildly successful sects; it also thrust America into the heart of cult dogma. Postwar religious practices were largely based on the activities of the US military. Cultists built loading docks according to the logic that cargo would arrive when docks were built, just as it apparently had during the American occupation. Believers routinely had visions of "Jake Navy," the corporate logo from an American brand of cigarettes; captains and lieutenants were appointed and exercised together daily.21 Village layouts were reorganized and genders segregated; airstrips, roads, and barrack-like housing were constructed; observances ranging from English lessons to self-imposed sexual continence were instituted—all intended to bring about the return of American wealth by simulating the conditions of an American military base.

As I said before, Cargo Cults pre-existed the US arrival. Understanding that is crucial to understanding their evolution. Note the next paragraph:

• ...On Esp�*rito Santo, the corollary to Tanna's Frummists were the Santo Naked Cult, which arose in the early 1920s under the command of a man named Runovoro. The early phase of the Naked movement culminated in the murder of a British planter in 1923; six cult leaders were executed. Runovoro wrote in a secret language, predicted that savior ancestors "would arrive after a Deluge in a great white ship loaded with Cargo,"22 and prophesied the end of white Europeans on the island. Cultists on Vanuatu began to talk of a "King of America" named Rusefel (Roosevelt) who was alternately John Frum's father, brother, or Frum himself. In 1941, John Frum claimed that "he would send his son to America to bring back the King"23; months later, American fleets began arriving en masse on Vanuatu.

LOL. Messiah cargo cults were documented in the 1920s in that region. Good-bye, Prince Philip.

LOL. Broom is a stretch, but perfect reproduction and preservation of the sound of a foreign language isn't?

LOL. The Conquistodors were grafted onto an extant cult, Chris. Evolution, not revolution. Time and again we see this mixing and grafting.

Bottom line is this: no evidence exists to show that John Frum is a real person, and all evidence indicates that he is an evolutionary outgrowth on an extant cult, incorporating local spirit beliefs, historical events, colonial contexts, the US presence on Vanuatu, and so on.

Michael

Chris Weimer

No, that's why I said "or".

Certainly you're not arguing that all cargo cults started in the late 19th century? I didn't think Price Philip was that old.

BTW, speaking of historical knowledge there, bud, WWII in the Pacific began in December of 1941. No cargo cult could have begun during WWII in 1940 in the S. Pacific because it hadn't begun yet.[/quote]
You said it yourself, Michael, evolution.

So, Prince Philip doesn't exist? Wow, Michael, now I think you're crazy.

Well, obviously it wasn't perfect reproduction, as its frum not from. It was butchered. That's why the suggestion of broom was possible. The English from, it appears, is a near match to their phonology.

Who claimed otherwise?

The evidence doesn't weigh in your favor. The exact same that is said about John Frum can be said about Prince Philip. Your position then Michael is basically that no one exists.

Vorkosigan

VORKOSIGAN: Bottom line is this: no evidence exists to show that John Frum is a real person, and all evidence indicates that he is an evolutionary outgrowth on an extant cult, incorporating local spirit beliefs, historical events, colonial contexts, the US presence on Vanuatu, and so on.

CHRIS: The evidence doesn't weigh in your favor. The exact same that is said about John Frum can be said about Prince Philip. Your position then Michael is basically that no one exists.

Sure Chris, because John Frum doesn't exist, Prince Philip does not exist.

Great logic, Chris.

Frum, as I pointed out, bears on the HJ-MJ debate. Prince Philip doesn't. I'll let you have the last word.