Albert Cipriani

Dear Logos,
I love your despair. I feel it, too, even with my theism.

Very few people, it seems, are willing to look reality square in the face as you are. Few dare allow themselves to be engulfed in their existential vacuum. Congratulations on the courage you demonstrate in facing unpleasant certitudes. – Sincerely, Albert

Howard

I’ve been to funerals (more than I like to remember) and have seen believers suffer the same grief and agony as non-believers. While they may believe their loved ones are in a better place, the only thing they know is that they are gone forever. And no amount of rationalization or wishful thinking will alter or ameliorate that painful fact.

When I was a believer I didn’t grieve or hurt any less than I do now. I don’t think anyone does.

Angra Mainyu

My condolences, Lógos Sokratikós, but I’m afraid I’m not too good at trying to make people feel better, so I’m just going to get into the debate instead, if you don’t mind.

Death and suffering mean nothing to the universe, I agree, but then, the universe isn’t a conscious being. The argument that it doesn’t matter to the universe may be literally true, but are you sure there isn’t an implicit anthropomorphism at work here?

Because it gives the idea that “does not matter” is something negative – as if it could matter, so that would be the opposite position. But it’s a simple consequence of the universe’s not being a conscious entity.

Still, "it doesn't matter" is something negative if it doesn't matter to us. I suppose the issue is whether something that's not eternal matters to us, but that I guess, depends on each person.

Why care?
I don’t know, but if someone feels like caring, why not?


Does atheism suck?

In my view, it depends on the person. A theist with hope in eternal life may very well a much more positive outlook on life. On the other hand, a theist in fear of godly punishment may be worse off than an atheist (though not all atheists reach the same conclusions about meaning, hope, etc., so that also depends on the case).

In short, I’d say atheism (or rather, some atheistic views) sucks compared with some theistic views, but it rocks compared to others.

As for who the lucky ones are, I wouldn’t use the word “lucky” or “unlucky” to refer to something that never existed, and “people who weren’t born” never existed, so who's luckier is not an issue for me.

Lógos Sokratikós

Eleanor Rigby, died in a church and was buried along with her name. Nobody came.

Paul McCartney ( :notworthy: ) wrote that song, performed by the Beatles. He just made that name up, as far as he remembers. But wait- some 30 years later someone found a tombstone of an Eleanor Rigby, pretty near where young McCartney used to play as a kid. Forgotten tombstone and covered with moss or whatever grows along the west-central English coast on forgotten tombstones. Now it's a tourist attraction.

But if it wasn't for that song, soon it would be gone. One day it would might have been (complicated verb tense, forgive me if got it wrong, my intention was a hypothetical future that now cannot come to pass -whew-) removed to make a parking lot.

Go to a nearby cemetary. See the stones whose names are almost erased. When someone else in the family dies, relatives might remember, they may decide to chisel out the names anew or replace the tombstone altogether. One day, after the 6th or 7th generation has passed, they will come no more. Father McKenzie, wiping the dirt form his hands as he walks from the grave- no one was saved...


In religions around the world, there is some kind of continuation. Who cares about Hiroshima, the loved ones just embarked to a new horizon, freed at last from the toils and pains of this dreadful world.

In atheism/naturalism, you get nothing. Nothing has happend, nothing to see, carry on.

Everything that exists in the world is just a spark that's lit and is out in a wink of an eye. And then, you forget about it, if somebody happend to notice its existence in the first place.

Angra Mainyu

True, most of the people who died, have been forgotten – further, they simply don’t exist in today’s world. And everyone will eventually cease to exist, I agree, so you don’t need to convince me of that.

That said, I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Let’s say nothing matters under naturalism. Suppose Christianity were possible, and correct. Would that mean that things would matter? Why?

Are you arguing that it’s intuitively meaningful what’s infinite, but not what’s finite?
(I’m not arguing against that point here, I’m just asking because I want to know why you derive meaninglessness from finiteness).

Lógos Sokratikós

Angra Mainyu, I agree with you in everything you said. Just let me comment upon this:

Well, on second thought, I guess you folks know what I'm going to say (I've been here for quite a while), that caring is ok, that whoever cares about Johnnie down the block will be dead too, etc etc.

Getting to where I was wanting to since I opened the thread, being here, I don't know what to do or say.

I guess all a non-theist can do is ignore these existential facts. In the end, in the big picture of the universe nothing matters, in one grand -and bleak- act of nihilism, nut right here and now, all we can do is focus on the here-and-now, and make the best of it.

Calm and centered. Where's Buddha when you need him??

Lógos Sokratikós

So very kind. Thanks for all that warmth I can feel through your words. One big bear hug for you from out of cyberspace.

Pax vobiscum. Vero. Pax et bonum te cum amicus Albertus.

Ratio Socratica



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Not bad, huh?

spamandham

Heh, how do you know? False memories feel EXACTLY like real memories. People swear up and down it really happened because the memory seems so real. Yet there are numerous documented cases where it is proven that the "remembered" event never happened. We can't trust our memories 100%.

quester

Maybe nothing matters in the end, but things matter NOW! To us and to other human beings.

spamandham

There isn't really any fundamental difference between atheists and theists in that regard. A theist merely subjugates his purpose to his belief of the purposes of his god. An atheist can do the same thing if he wants, by subjugating his purpose to humanity for example, or to his family, or whatever.

Whether you are a theist or an atheist, upon death, everything you dreamed and lived is gone. The only difference is most theists think this life sets the stage for the next and so it has that purpose. But once it's over, it's just as meaningless.