Cosmogenes

It seems that the best solution is to view the JOHN Gospel as a heavily edited Docetic document that attempted to solve the "where from" question by borrowing the concept of the divine Logos from Philo, who in turn borrowed it from Plato and originally from Heraclitus. For Philo the Logos was an intermediary divine being, a demiurge necessary to bridge gap between God and the material world. Philo already called it "the first-born of God" and even "a second god" (deutero theos). It is likely that he equated this with the "Wisdom" of Proverbs, Hokhma, which was originally represented as a female. The author of GJOHN further developed it into an incarnated being in the person of Jesus, without describing the incarnation as a physical process. In that he follows the Pauline idea of a being who originally exieted in the form of a god but chose to take on the appearance of a human.

GakuseiDon

The identification of the Logos with Jesus in gJohn occurs only in John 1, as far as I can see, which raises the possibility that it was added to turn a docetic text into a proto-orthodox one, by having "the Word" made "flesh".

Duvduv

.....which raises the question as to whether GJohn took it from a separate non-flesh Logos story of a celestial non-flesh Christ and combined it with the bits and pieces of the HJ story that he knew of.

aa5874

Again, that is NOT likely. It makes no sense for the Church to Canonise KNOWN Heresy.

It would be highly illogical and unreasonable to expect that some interpolator to use the KNOWN writings of one who supported Docetism and left it just as it was found written or only changed a sentence or two to support the very opposite.

gJohn appears to have been written by some one who believed or wanted people to Believe that Jesus Christ was the Logos of God and that the Logos came to earth.

Adam

Good thinking, aa, no fooling!
However, it turns out that academic scholarship does say that there was such an interpolation. See page 23 in Udo Schelle's Antidocetic Christology in the gospel of John (1992, from 1987 German) that gJohn was primarily docetic, but was converted to antidocetism with such additions as John 1:14-18, 5:28-29, 6:39b, 40c, 44c, 6:51c-58, 19:34-35, I John 4:2-3, 5:6.

DCHindley

Funny you should mention that. I kept comparing the RSV to the Greek of the Prologue and some additional passages in chapters 1 and 3 that seem to be the core cosmology:

RSV John	BGT John
1:1 In the beginning was the Word,	1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος,
and the Word was with God,	καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν,
and the Word was God.	καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
2 He was in the beginning with God;	2 οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν.
3 all things were made through him,	3 πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο,
and without him was not anything made	καὶ χωρὶς αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο οὐδὲ ἕν.
that was made.	ὃ γέγονεν
4 In him was life,	4 ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἦν,
and the life was the light of men.	καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἦν τὸ φῶς τῶν ἀνθρώπων•
5 The light shines in the darkness,	5 καὶ τὸ φῶς ἐν τῇ σκοτίᾳ φαίνει,
and the darkness has not overcome it.	καὶ ἡ σκοτία αὐτὸ οὐ κατέλαβεν.
9 The true light	9 Ἦν τὸ φῶς τὸ ἀληθινόν,
that enlightens every man	ὃ φωτίζει πάντα ἄνθρωπον,
was coming into the world.	ἐρχόμενον εἰς τὸν κόσμον.
10 He was in the world,	10 ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ ἦν,
and the world was made through him,	καὶ ὁ κόσμος δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο,
yet the world knew him not.	καὶ ὁ κόσμος αὐτὸν οὐκ ἔγνω.
11 He came to his own home,	11 εἰς τὰ ἴδια ἦλθεν,
and his own people received him not.	καὶ οἱ ἴδιοι αὐτὸν οὐ παρέλαβον.
12a But to all who received him,	12 ὅσοι δὲ ἔλαβον αὐτόν,
12c he gave power to become children of God;	ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ἐξουσίαν τέκνα θεοῦ γενέσθαι,
12b who believed in his name,	τοῖς πιστεύουσιν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ,
13a who	13 οἳ
13c not of blood	οὐκ ἐξ αἱμάτων
13d nor of the will of the flesh	οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος σαρκὸς
13e nor of the will of man,	οὐδὲ ἐκ θελήματος ἀνδρὸς
13f but of God.	ἀλλ᾽ ἐκ θεοῦ
13b were born,	ἐγεννήθησαν.
14a And the Word became flesh	14 Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
14b and dwelt among us,	καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν,
14d we have beheld his glory,	καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ,
14e glory as of the only begotten of Father.	δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός,
14c full of grace and truth;	πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας.
16 And from his fulness	16 ὅτι ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ
have we all received,	ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν
grace upon grace.	καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος•
18 No one has ever seen God;	18 Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε
an only begotten god	μονογενὴς θεὸς
who is in the bosom of the Father,	ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς
that (one) has made him known.	ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.

You will notice this is essentially a statement of principles in a divine cosmology, in which the creative entity (Logos = Reason) is itself divine, resting within the bosom of a supreme divinity, "Father," causing everything that Father thinks to come to be. This Logos may be influenced by Philo of Alexandria's restatement of Platonic cosmology to make it conform with statements in the five books of the law.

The additions about John the Baptist:

6 There was a man	6 Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος,
sent from God,	ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ,
whose name was John.	ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης•
7 He came for testimony,	7 οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν
to bear witness to the light,	ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός,
that all might believe through him.	ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι᾽ αὐτοῦ.
8 He was not the light,	8 οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς,
but came to bear witness to the light.	ἀλλ᾽ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός.

exist to set up a narrative, coming later, that will demonstrate

17 that the law was given through Moses;	17 ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη,
grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.	ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.

Now the author of John demonstrates that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is this divine Logos. This is a process I call "Adoption" of one tradition into another. The prologue, as reconstituted by the editors of Nestle-Aland GNT, has "only begotten god" and never mentioned Son, although there are lots of variant mss that make it "son" in some way or another. This is a process I call "Adaption" of the adopted tradition to conform to the way of thinking of the adoptors.

3: 13 No one has ascended into heaven	13 καὶ οὐδεὶς ἀναβέβηκεν εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν
but he who descended from heaven,	εἰ μὴ ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ καταβάς,
the Son of man.	ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,	14 Καὶ καθὼς Μωϋσῆς ὕψωσεν τὸν ὄφιν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ,
so must the Son of man be lifted up,	οὕτως ὑψωθῆναι δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."	15 ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων ἐν αὐτῷ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
16 For God so loved the world	16 οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον,
that he gave his only Son,	ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν,
that whoever believes in him should not perish	ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται
but have eternal life.	ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον.
17 For God sent the Son into the world,	17 οὐ γὰρ ἀπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν υἱὸν εἰς τὸν κόσμον
17 not to condemn the world,	ἵνα κρίνῃ τὸν κόσμον,
17 but that the world might be saved through him.	ἀλλ᾽ ἵνα σωθῇ ὁ κόσμος δι᾽ αὐτοῦ.
18 He who believes in him is not condemned;	18 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν οὐ κρίνεται•
he who does not believe is condemned already,	ὁ δὲ μὴ πιστεύων ἤδη κέκριται,
because he has not believed in the name	ὅτι μὴ πεπίστευκεν εἰς τὸ ὄνομα
of the only Son of God.	τοῦ μονογενοῦς υἱοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ.
19 And this is the judgment,	19 αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ κρίσις
that the light has come into the world,	ὅτι τὸ φῶς ἐλήλυθεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον
and men loved darkness rather than light,	καὶ ἠγάπησαν οἱ ἄνθρωποι μᾶλλον τὸ σκότος ἢ τὸ φῶς
because their deeds were evil.	ἦν γὰρ αὐτῶν πονηρὰ τὰ ἔργα.
20 For every one who does evil hates the light,	20 πᾶς γὰρ ὁ φαῦλα πράσσων μισεῖ τὸ φῶς •
and does not come to the light,	καὶ οὐκ ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸ φῶς,
lest his deeds should be exposed.	ἵνα μὴ ἐλεγχθῇ τὰ ἔργα αὐτοῦ
21 But he who does what is true	21 ὁ δὲ ποιῶν τὴν ἀλήθειαν
comes to the light,	ἔρχεται πρὸς τὸ φῶς,
that it may be clearly seen	ἵνα φανερωθῇ αὐτοῦ τὰ ἔργα
that his deeds have been wrought in God.	ὅτι ἐν θεῷ ἐστιν εἰργασμένα.

3: 31 He who comes from above is above all;	31 Ὁ ἄνωθεν ἐρχόμενος ἐπάνω πάντων ἐστίν
he who is of the earth belongs to the earth,	ὁ ὢν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ἐκ τῆς γῆς ἐστιν
and of the earth he speaks;	καὶ ἐκ τῆς γῆς λαλεῖ.
he who comes from heaven.	ὁ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἐρχόμενος
is above all	[ἐπάνω πάντων ἐστίν]
32 He bears witness to what he has seen and heard,	32 ὃ ἑώρακεν καὶ ἤκουσεν τοῦτο μαρτυρεῖ,
yet no one receives his testimony;	καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν αὐτοῦ οὐδεὶς λαμβάνει.
33 he who receives his testimony sets his seal to this,	33 ὁ λαβὼν αὐτοῦ τὴν μαρτυρίαν ἐσφράγισεν
that God is true.	ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ἀληθής ἐστιν.
34 For he whom God has sent utters the words of God,	34 ὃν γὰρ ἀπέστειλεν ὁ θεὸς τὰ ῥήματα τοῦ θεοῦ λαλεῖ,
for it is not by measure that he gives the Spirit;	οὐ γὰρ ἐκ μέτρου δίδωσιν τὸ πνεῦμα.
35 the Father loves the Son,	35 ὁ πατὴρ ἀγαπᾷ τὸν υἱὸν
and has given all things into his hand.	καὶ πάντα δέδωκεν ἐν τῇ χειρὶ αὐτοῦ.
36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;	36 ὁ πιστεύων εἰς τὸν υἱὸν ἔχει ζωὴν αἰώνιον•
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,	ὁ δὲ ἀπειθῶν τῷ υἱῷ οὐκ ὄψεται ζωήν,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.	ἀλλ᾽ ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θεοῦ μένει ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν.

See the development going on?

DCH

Duvduv

I am having trouble following the point you are making because I don't know Greek. Does it provide evidence that there existed a purely celestial Logos-Christ story that was integrated into a HJ story of GJohn?