Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 02-26-2012, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams for the LORD your God proveth you to know whether (yesh/hă·yiš·ḵem) ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice and ye shall serve him and cleave unto him [Deut 13.3 - 4]

At first glance there is nothing mystical about this saying. A European reader would just assume that the point is to obey God. Yet the Alexandrian and Samaritan traditions see this as a highly mystical statement about translation to the hereafter.

Clement for instance begins with the assumption that the description of creation 'made in image and likeness' is a twofold process - at the beginning made according to the image and then at the end after the likeness because of Jesus:

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Again the Barbarian philosophy knows the world of thought and the world of sense -- the former archetypal, and the latter the image of that which is called the model; and assigns the former to the Monad, as being perceived by the mind, and the world of sense to the number six. For six is called by the Pythagoreans marriage, as being the genital number; and he places in the Monad the invisible heaven and the holy earth, and intellectual light. For "in the beginning," it is said, "God made the heaven and the earth; and the earth was invisible." And it is added, "And God said, Let there be light; and there was light." And in the material cosmogony He creates a solid heaven (and what is solid is capable of being perceived by sense), and a visible earth, and a light that is seen. Does not Plato hence appear to have left the ideas of living creatures in the intellectual world, and to make intellectual objects into sensible species according to their genera? Rightly then Moses says, that the body which Plato calls "the earthly tabernacle" was formed of the ground, but that the rational soul was breathed by God into man's face. For there, they say, the ruling faculty is situated; interpreting the access by the senses into the first man as the addition of the soul.

Wherefore also man is said "to have been made in [God's] image and likeness." For the image of God is the divine and royal Word, the impassible man; and the image of the image is the human mind. And if you wish to apprehend the likeness by another name, you will find it named in Moses, a divine correspondence. For he says, "Walk after the Lord your God, and keep His commandments." And I reckon all the virtuous, servants and followers of God. Hence the Stoics say that the end of philosophy is to live agreeable to nature; and Plato, likeness to God, as we have shown in the second Miscellany. And Zeno the Stoic, borrowing from Plato, and he from the Barbarian philosophy, says that all the good are friends of one another. For Socrates says in the Phoedrus, "that it has not been ordained that the bad should be a friend to the bad, nor the good be not a friend to the good;" as also he showed sufficiently in the Lysis, that friendship is never preserved in wickedness and vice. And the Athenian stranger similarly says, "that there is conduct pleasing and conformable to God, based on one ancient ground-principle, That like loves like, provided it be within measure. But things beyond measure are congenial neither to what is within nor what is beyond measure. Now it is the case that God is the measure to us of all things." Then proceeding, Plato adds: "For every good man is like every other good man; and so being like to God, he is liked by every good man and by God." At this point I have just recollected the following. In the end of the Timoeus he says: "You must necessarily assimilate that which perceives to that which is perceived, according to its original nature; and it is by so assimilating it that you attain to the end of the highest life proposed by the gods to men, for the present or the future time." For those have equal power with these. He, who seeks, will not stop till he find; and having found, he will wonder; and wondering, he will reign; and reigning, he will rest. And what? Were not also those expressions of Thales derived from these? The fact that God is glorified for ever, and that He is expressly called by us the Searcher of hearts, he interprets. For Thales being asked, What is the divinity? said, What has neither beginning nor end. And on another asking, "If a man could elude the knowledge of the Divine Being while doing aught?" said, "How could he who cannot do so while thinking?" [Clement of Alexandria Strom 5.12]

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For is it not thus that some of our writers have understood that man straightway on his creation received what is "according to the image," but that what is according "to the likeness" he will receive afterwards on his perfection (ἢ γὰρ οὐχ οὕτως τινὲς τῶν ἡμετέρων τὸ μὲν κατ' εἰκόνα εὐθέως κατὰ τὴν γένεσιν εἰληφέναι τὸν ἄνθρωπον, τὸ καθ' ὁμοίωσιν δὲ ὕστερον κατὰ τὴν τελείωσιν μέλλειν ἀπολαμβάνειν ἐκ δέχονται) Now Plato, teaching that the virtuous man shall have this likeness accompanied with humility, explains the following: "He that humbleth himself shall be exalted." He says, accordingly, in The Laws: "God indeed, as the ancient saying has it, occupying the beginning, the middle, and the end of all things, goes straight through while He goes round the circumference. And He is always attended by Justice, the avenger of those who revolt from the divine law." You see how he connects fear with the divine law. He adds, therefore: "To which he, who would be happy, cleaving, will follow lowly and beautified." [ibid Strom 2.20]

The same ideas are found in the Mimar Marqe:

Quote:

The good will be joyful and none of their clothes will wear out upon them, because they loved the sojourner and gave him bread and clothing. Their faces will be radiant, for they did not turn their faces away from seeking. Their palms will be full of light, for they were not closed against righteous dealing. Their hearts will be full of light, for Belial did not speak to them. Their souls are pure, for they loved their Lord with soul and heart and strength—as He said, "And you shall love the Lord your God" (Deut. 13.3; Targ.). Their feet did not falter, for they walked after the Lord—as He said, "You shall walk after the Lord" (Deut. 13. 4; Targ.). All this will be brought to pass in the Day of Recompenses.

... Happy the righteous for what they possess. Shade and wellbeing (var. light) will give them rest, shade from the Garden and wellbeing from heaven. The one provides refreshing coolness for them, the other gives them rest. What a splendid portion, the portion of righteousness! He who is humble will be in great glory in this world and the next.

Glory be to the great prophet Moses whom his Lord sanctified and placed in a status which no man of the descendants of Adam has ever attained, neither before him nor since. [Mimar Marqe 4:12]

outhouse · 02-26-2012, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams for the LORD your God proveth you to know whether (yesh/hă·yiš·ḵem) ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice and ye shall serve him and cleave unto him [Deut 13.3 - 4]

I find it nothing more then the author fighting the polytheism that was left over after 628BC during the period of second Isaiah when they went to strict monothism.

This was just preaching against those who would teach about anyone else but yahweh, while the religion went to monotheism, it took a while to weed out those devoted to El and the many versions of El hebrews used.

outhouse · 02-26-2012, 11:08 PM

Quote:

At first glance there is nothing mystical about this saying. A European reader would just assume that the point is to obey God. Yet the Alexandrian and Samaritan traditions see this as a highly mystical statement about translation to the hereafter.

Clement for instance begins with the assumption that the description of creation 'made in image and likeness' is a twofold process - at the beginning made according to the image and then at the end after the likeness because of Jesus:

because none of these groups have the knowledge we now possess.

We know the real history they did not, we can put it all in teh right context, they could not.

they let their imaginations get the best of them

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 12:08 AM

So knowledge of the proper interpretation of the scriptures IMPROVES the further away we get from the original sources?

sotto voce · 02-27-2012, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams for the LORD your God proveth you to know whether (yesh/hă·yiš·ḵem) ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice and ye shall serve him and cleave unto him [Deut 13.3 - 4]

At first glance there is nothing mystical about this saying. A European reader would just assume that the point is to obey God. Yet the Alexandrian and Samaritan traditions see this as a highly mystical statement about translation to the hereafter.

Clement for instance begins with the assumption that the description of creation 'made in image and likeness' is a twofold process

Why would anyone assume a twofold process? Who assumed it before Clement?

judge · 02-27-2012, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

So knowledge of the proper interpretation of the scriptures IMPROVES the further away we get from the original sources?

No, first it deteriorates over time. Then as the texts are studied in a more rational manner (the last 250 years) we are able to see things those before us (but still a long way after the text was produced) could not see

aeebee50 · 02-27-2012, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams for the LORD your God proveth you to know whether (yesh/hă·yiš·ḵem) ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice and ye shall serve him and cleave unto him [Deut 13.3 - 4]

At first glance there is nothing mystical about this saying. A European reader would just assume that the point is to obey God. Yet the Alexandrian and Samaritan traditions see this as a highly mystical statement about translation to the hereafter.

Clement for instance begins with the assumption that the description of creation 'made in image and likeness' is a twofold process - at the beginning made according to the image and then at the end after the likeness because of Jesus:

The same ideas are found in the Mimar Marqe:

Quote:

The good will be joyful and none of their clothes will wear out upon them, because they loved the sojourner and gave him bread and clothing. Their faces will be radiant, for they did not turn their faces away from seeking. Their palms will be full of light, for they were not closed against righteous dealing. Their hearts will be full of light, for Belial did not speak to them. Their souls are pure, for they loved their Lord with soul and heart and strength—as He said, "And you shall love the Lord your God" (Deut. 13.3; Targ.). Their feet did not falter, for they walked after the Lord—as He said, "You shall walk after the Lord" (Deut. 13. 4; Targ.). All this will be brought to pass in the Day of Recompenses.

... Happy the righteous for what they possess. Shade and wellbeing (var. light) will give them rest, shade from the Garden and wellbeing from heaven. The one provides refreshing coolness for them, the other gives them rest. What a splendid portion, the portion of righteousness! He who is humble will be in great glory in this world and the next.

Glory be to the great prophet Moses whom his Lord sanctified and placed in a status which no man of the descendants of Adam has ever attained, neither before him nor since. [Mimar Marqe 4:12]

Sounded like a good way for everybody to follow along.

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Why would anyone assume a twofold process? Who assumed it before Clement?

The short answers is (a) not Philo (at least openly) but (b) not any other early Father (at least that I can see) but (c) yes Marqe albeit not with reference to Genesis 1:26 (maybe he did but we only have so many parshiot of commentary a fraction of the original. I will demonstrate Marqe's notion from his commentary on the Great Song (Deut 32)

stephan huller · 02-27-2012, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Then as the texts are studied in a more rational manner (the last 250 years)

Have you ever read Ibn Ezra? He's very rational and offers up very perceptive insights. There were others too. The difficulty is of course - who within an irrational tradition would want to preserve a rational/skeptical exegesis of the scriptures. Philo only survives among Christians. Marqe would have disappeared along with the Samaritans etc.

sotto voce · 02-27-2012, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Why would anyone assume a twofold process? Who assumed it before Clement?

The short answers is (a) not Philo (at least openly) but (b) not any other early Father (at least that I can see) but (c) yes Marqe albeit not with reference to Genesis 2:14

Nobody before Clement, then, as far as is known. Nobody in many centuries, then, as far as is known. So how justified is it to claim that Clement 'begins with the assumption'? It is not more accurate to claim that Clement begins with the invention that the description of early Genesis of creation 'made in image and likeness' is a twofold process? How could anyone assume a twofold process? Surely one must have suffered very poor eyesight to have assumed such an idea.

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02-27-2012, 12:08 AM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	So knowledge of the proper interpretation of the scriptures IMPROVES the further away we get from the original sources?

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