Freethought & Rationalism Archive

andrewcriddle · 09-24-2010, 01:00 PM

As a term of analysis on this forum, I use myth to mean a narrative that is regarded as true (as distinct from parables or edifying fictions) but whose truth is not regarded as a claim about ordinary everyday history. IE questions such as "just when and/or where did this happen ?" are regarded as peripheral or even inappropriate.

Andrew Criddle

bacht · 09-24-2010, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

The whole genre of science fiction is a more or less modern and connected with the Scientific and Industrial Revolutions. Thus a story like Frankenstein only makes sense in a world where biology has advanced to a modern level.

(Psst! You should read

Lucian of Samosata's

True History!)

Yes, I was aware that there were some ancient prototypes. Maybe the pov of the writer is different between satirists and technophiles?

aa5874 · 09-24-2010, 02:47 PM

Myth can be any of the first four choices and may be a combination of all four.

1. A fictional representation purporting to be a past event.
2. A story involving supernatural deeds.
3. A narrative whose purpose is to portray religious ideas.
4. A widely-held misconception.

There is more than one element or meaning to the word "myth".

There can be "myth" about real people of history but the history of real people is NOT determined by "myth" but actual history.

It was not the "myth" about cutting down the cherry tree that made George Washington a figure of history.

spin · 09-25-2010, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Spin,

I've got a couple minutes before I have to head out on the road, so I'll take my break now and say that I use Myth in the sense of a secondary meaning riding on top of literal meaning.

Normal communication works like this: In the US of A, the American flag stands in for the country as a whole. The figures of "mom and apple pie" represent the country's values epitomized in the 1950's & 60's (stay-at-home mom prepares the family meals which the whole family gathers as one to eat). In those cases, it can be said that the flag is just a flag, or mom is just a mom, apple pie is just a pie (although here there will be some who will feel the necessity to question whether that pie should be open top or closed top crust). Myth is when the thing symbolically represented by the image of the flag, that is the USA, is used as the signifier for an even further tertiary meaning (say, for instance evil or colonialism).

See Roland Barthes. This definition covers all subcategories of myth, including the ones normally found in use here.

But is that what you mean when you use the word "myth" here, remembering that you are trying to communicate with other people about religious matters?

(I'd say that Barthes was being deliberately provocative and manipulating language, as would be the case in the main tide of post-modernism. His use of the term is idiosyncratic and ultimately debasing of the term for what would seem to be polemical purposes.)

spin

DCHindley · 09-27-2010, 08:27 PM

He's just being post structural. Myth is like the derivatives produced by calculus, with structural linguistics being the calculus of language communication. I don't think his view of the matter is idiosyncratic, and certainly not polemical. Is it polemical to bring to mind that people use figurative speech through the use of everyday descriptive terms? Maybe that seems too Derridesque for you.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Spin,

I've got a couple minutes before I have to head out on the road, so I'll take my break now and say that I use Myth in the sense of a secondary meaning riding on top of literal meaning.

Normal communication works like this: In the US of A, the American flag stands in for the country as a whole. The figures of "mom and apple pie" represent the country's values epitomized in the 1950's & 60's (stay-at-home mom prepares the family meals which the whole family gathers as one to eat). In those cases, it can be said that the flag is just a flag, or mom is just a mom, apple pie is just a pie (although here there will be some who will feel the necessity to question whether that pie should be open top or closed top crust). Myth is when the thing symbolically represented by the image of the flag, that is the USA, is used as the signifier for an even further tertiary meaning (say, for instance evil or colonialism).

See Roland Barthes. This definition covers all subcategories of myth, including the ones normally found in use here.

But is that what you mean when you use the word "myth" here, remembering that you are trying to communicate with other people about religious matters?

(I'd say that Barthes was being deliberately provocative and manipulating language, as would be the case in the main tide of post-modernism. His use of the term is idiosyncratic and ultimately debasing of the term for what would seem to be polemical purposes.)

spin

mountainman · 09-27-2010, 10:09 PM

What do I mean by "myth"?

The life and travels of Bilbo Baggins is a non-historical myth.
The life and adventures of Harry Potter is a non-historical myth.
The life and episodes of Superman is a non-historical myth.
The life and expectations of Pooh Bear is a non-historical myth.
The life and experiences of Alice in Wonderland is a non-historical myth.
The life and historicity of Jesus Christ is a non-historical myth.

Diogenes the Cynic · 09-28-2010, 12:40 PM

A "myth" is a sacred story, which may or may not also be intended to to be taken as historical.

aa5874 · 09-28-2010, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

A "myth" is a sacred story, which may or may not also be intended to to be taken as historical.

There is NO need to apply a SINGLE meaning to the word "myth". There are dictionaries that give the meaning of "myth" and there are SEVERAL meanings.

All that is needed is to establish is that a "mythical" Jesus is reference to a non-historical Jesus and that the "historical" Jesus is reference to a human being who lived in the 1st century and was supposedly crucified under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius.

Dave31 · 09-28-2010, 04:45 PM

In the mythicist position video the definition of "myth" mentioned is:

Quote:

“A traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth

Quote:

The Mythicist Position:

"Mythicism represents the perspective that many gods, goddesses and other heroes and legendary figures said to possess extraordinary and/or supernatural attributes are not “real people” but are in fact mythological characters. Along with this view comes the recognition that many of these figures personify or symbolize natural phenomena, such as the sun, moon, stars, planets, constellations, etc., constituting what is called “astromythology” or “astrotheology.” As a major example of the mythicist position, it is determined that various biblical characters such as Adam and Eve, Satan, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, King David, Solomon and Jesus Christ, among other entities, in reality represent mythological figures along the same lines as the Egyptian, Sumerian, Phoenician, Indian, Greek, Roman and other godmen, who are all presently accepted as myths, rather than historical figures."

- Christ in Egypt, page 12

The mythicist position video

What is a Mythicist?

Thread here on Mythicism

Holly3278 · 09-28-2010, 11:34 PM

I voted that it means a fictional story or narrative purporting to be an actual historical event. And that is precisely what the Bible is. It is a fictional story which purports to be a series of actual historical events which probably never even happened to begin with.

View Poll Results: When you use the term in this forum, what is a myth?
A fictional representation purporting to be a past event.	8	24.24%
A story involving supernatural deeds.	3	9.09%
A narrative whose purpose is to portray religious ideas.	10	30.30%
A widely-held misconception.	0	0%
A female moth.	2	6.06%
Don't know.	0	0%
None of the above and I will explain.	10	30.30%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-24-2010, 01:00 PM	#31
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	As a term of analysis on this forum, I use myth to mean a narrative that is regarded as true (as distinct from parables or edifying fictions) but whose truth is not regarded as a claim about ordinary everyday history. IE questions such as "just when and/or where did this happen ?" are regarded as peripheral or even inappropriate. Andrew Criddle

09-24-2010, 02:47 PM	#33
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	Myth can be any of the first four choices and may be a combination of all four. 1. A fictional representation purporting to be a past event. 2. A story involving supernatural deeds. 3. A narrative whose purpose is to portray religious ideas. 4. A widely-held misconception. There is more than one element or meaning to the word "myth". There can be "myth" about real people of history but the history of real people is NOT determined by "myth" but actual history. It was not the "myth" about cutting down the cherry tree that made George Washington a figure of history.

09-27-2010, 10:09 PM	#36
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	What do I mean by "myth"? The life and travels of Bilbo Baggins is a non-historical myth. The life and adventures of Harry Potter is a non-historical myth. The life and episodes of Superman is a non-historical myth. The life and expectations of Pooh Bear is a non-historical myth. The life and experiences of Alice in Wonderland is a non-historical myth. The life and historicity of Jesus Christ is a non-historical myth.

09-28-2010, 12:40 PM	#37
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	A "myth" is a sacred story, which may or may not also be intended to to be taken as historical.

09-28-2010, 11:34 PM	#40
Holly3278 Regular Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Midwest, United States Posts: 148	I voted that it means a fictional story or narrative purporting to be an actual historical event. And that is precisely what the Bible is. It is a fictional story which purports to be a series of actual historical events which probably never even happened to begin with.

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