Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 09-26-2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

1 Wisdom has built her house;
she has hewn out its seven pillars.
2 She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine;
she has also set her table.
3 She has sent out her maids, and she calls
from the highest point of the city.
4 "Let all who are simple come in here!"
she says to those who lack judgment.
5 "Come, eat my food
and drink the wine I have mixed.
6 Leave your simple ways and you will live;
walk in the way of understanding.

So the Eucharist is from Proverbs?

dzim77 · 09-26-2006, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

I've been investigating the history of the Trinity doctrine, which is usually (in my experience) Scripturally held up in two parts: 1) the divinity of Christ; and 2) the linking of the Father and the Son to the so-called "Holy Spirit." My first hunch was that the latter was a Christian invention, but there are two passages which I needed to check out before settling on that conclusion: Psalm 51:11 and Isaiah 63:10-11. In each case, and especially for Psalm 51, it seems that "holy spirit" means more or less the hand of God, not a separate person but just another manifestation of the diety himself.

Regardless of what the original authors intended, however, there was plenty of time between these passages' composition and Jesus' alleged resurrection for a Jewish myth to creep up. Are there any other notable Jewish references to a "Holy Spirit," or something similar, prior to c. AD 50?

To any veterans out there, what's your take?

Thanks!
--Ben

Did you check out Genesis 1?

Quote:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Not a trinity proof text per se, but the concept of the Spirit of God is there.

Also, check out Job 33:4

Quote:

4 The Spirit of God has made me;
the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Clivedurdle · 09-26-2006, 03:24 PM

We have a clear evolution (like that of the concept of satan as outlined by Pagels?) including spirit of god, sophia and holy spirit.

Might the genesis idea of spirit of god be later than the concept of sophia?

We seem to have a change of sex, or do we?

What was trying to be communicated by this idea "spirit". Are there connections to wind or aer?

GIDEON MAGE · 09-26-2006, 03:58 PM

The Hebrw word Ruach "spirit or wind" is decidecly female. the authors of the n.t, writing in the fourth century in greek, apparently didn't know this, as spirit in latin and greek is male.it soesn't make any sense to have three male gods only.

lpetrich · 09-26-2006, 04:00 PM

I think that "Holy Spirit" is originally a bowdlerization of "Spirit of God" or "God's breath". It is a long-time Jewish custom to avoid referring to God directly. Thus, YHWH got written with the vowels of "Adonai" ("Lord"), getting interpreted as "Jehovah" instead of the more likely correct "Yahweh". And some present-day Jews write "God" as "G-d".

The author(s) of the Gospel of Matthew had also followed this tradition; they speak of the "Kingdom of Heaven" where the other Gospels would speak of the "Kingdom of God".

Clivedurdle · 09-27-2006, 03:23 PM

Are our assumptions about the holy spirit being male due to gender rules in Greek and an assumption that to get Mary pregnant requires a male?

Are they unwarranted assumptions?

judge · 09-27-2006, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Sophia, or Wisdom, is a female idea in the Hebrew Scriptures. AFAIK Philo was the first to change her sex, because men ruled in those days, and it wouldn't do to have a female spirit.

The Holy Spirit appesr in the feminie in the Aramaic version of the NT as well.
In John 1 the "Word" appears to be both male and female.

Clivedurdle · 09-28-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by judge

The Holy Spirit appesr in the feminie in the Aramaic version of the NT as well.
In John 1 the "Word" appears to be both male and female.

Are we agreed that in attempting to define the origin of the holy spirit we cannot even define its sex?

spin · 09-28-2006, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dzim77

Did you check out Genesis 1?

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Not a trinity proof text per se, but the concept of the Spirit of God is there.

You need a better translation. RWX literally means "wind", as here it is translated in trustworthy versions such as the NRSV and the JPS. To understand the verse at all you need to have consulted the Enuma Elish, which mentions the battle between Marduk and watery chaos, Tiamat (Heb, THWM, "deep" in Gen 1:2). It is by use of the wind that Marduk slays Tiamat, the chaotic waters and slits her in two raising the top half above the sky and fixing it there, while forming the world from the other half. The Hebrew version has sublimated some of the elements, but it is the same story. The wind is the wind, not the spirit of god.

spin

charley63 · 09-28-2006, 08:39 AM

Primitive Christianity was basically unclear on the relation of Jesus to God, but the pressure to make Jesus equal to God was very strong, and won out as "orthodoxy" over time. Adding a third equal "Spirit" was somewhat murkier and has not been very well elaborated in subsequent theology. The Spirit has no official gender in orthodoxy, though assigning feminity to the Holy Spirit was extrememly rare until the last century, under the influence of feminism.

As noted "Spirit" appears in the Hebrew Canon quite early, though Genesis 1:1ff is considered by scholars to belong to a later compositional era than the earliest texts.

I googled various permutations of "holy spirit" and "theology", but came up with very little that would address the question from a naturalistic perspective. I think it would be very interesting to read some biblical scholarship that is non-theistic that looks at the question without the religious constraints I found in most of the on-line sources. A naturalist scholar would ask questions like what sort of experiences and cultural factors led to the discourse about "spirit" as distinct from "god"?

peace - Charley

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-26-2006, 03:24 PM	#13
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	We have a clear evolution (like that of the concept of satan as outlined by Pagels?) including spirit of god, sophia and holy spirit. Might the genesis idea of spirit of god be later than the concept of sophia? We seem to have a change of sex, or do we? What was trying to be communicated by this idea "spirit". Are there connections to wind or aer?

09-26-2006, 03:58 PM	#14
GIDEON MAGE Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: hollywood, fla Posts: 9	The Hebrw word Ruach "spirit or wind" is decidecly female. the authors of the n.t, writing in the fourth century in greek, apparently didn't know this, as spirit in latin and greek is male.it soesn't make any sense to have three male gods only.

09-26-2006, 04:00 PM	#15
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	I think that "Holy Spirit" is originally a bowdlerization of "Spirit of God" or "God's breath". It is a long-time Jewish custom to avoid referring to God directly. Thus, YHWH got written with the vowels of "Adonai" ("Lord"), getting interpreted as "Jehovah" instead of the more likely correct "Yahweh". And some present-day Jews write "God" as "G-d". The author(s) of the Gospel of Matthew had also followed this tradition; they speak of the "Kingdom of Heaven" where the other Gospels would speak of the "Kingdom of God".

09-27-2006, 03:23 PM	#16
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Are our assumptions about the holy spirit being male due to gender rules in Greek and an assumption that to get Mary pregnant requires a male? Are they unwarranted assumptions?

09-28-2006, 08:39 AM	#20
charley63 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Chicago Posts: 114	Primitive Christianity was basically unclear on the relation of Jesus to God, but the pressure to make Jesus equal to God was very strong, and won out as "orthodoxy" over time. Adding a third equal "Spirit" was somewhat murkier and has not been very well elaborated in subsequent theology. The Spirit has no official gender in orthodoxy, though assigning feminity to the Holy Spirit was extrememly rare until the last century, under the influence of feminism. As noted "Spirit" appears in the Hebrew Canon quite early, though Genesis 1:1ff is considered by scholars to belong to a later compositional era than the earliest texts. I googled various permutations of "holy spirit" and "theology", but came up with very little that would address the question from a naturalistic perspective. I think it would be very interesting to read some biblical scholarship that is non-theistic that looks at the question without the religious constraints I found in most of the on-line sources. A naturalist scholar would ask questions like what sort of experiences and cultural factors led to the discourse about "spirit" as distinct from "god"? peace - Charley

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.