Freethought & Rationalism Archive

manwithdream · 01-22-2012, 12:13 PM

Did average people and/or kings bring idols with them to wars in Bible times? Did they set them up in any way or just carry them if they did bring them to battles?

Kenneth Greifer

Iskander · 01-22-2012, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

Did average people and/or kings bring idols with them to wars in Bible times? Did they set them up in any way or just carry them if they did bring them to battles?

Kenneth Greifer

Spinoza says the Israelites did just that. I don’t have a bible at hand, but the relevant passage will be known to you

Quote:

And the Ark of the Covenant was born in the midst of the army in important battles, when the safety or destruction of the whole people hung upon the issue, so that the people might, as it were, see their King among them, and put forth all their strength

Spinoza, Tractatus-Theologico-Politicus, Tractatus Politicus

They weren’t idols, though.

Sarpedon · 01-22-2012, 12:39 PM

What do you mean "Bible Times?"

aeebee50 · 01-22-2012, 12:44 PM

Judah did their worship of idols. http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/12judah.html

Iskander · 01-22-2012, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeebee50

Judah did their worship of idols. http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/12judah.html

Yes, but those weren’t idols to them.

Sarpedon · 01-22-2012, 01:08 PM

No one's idols are idols to them.

PhilosopherJay · 01-22-2012, 02:23 PM

Hi Kenneth,

From Wikipedia -
Asherah -

Quote:

In a BBC documentary, Francesca Stavrakopoulou countered that view: "The majority of biblical scholars throughout the world now accept it as compelling evidence that God once had a consort."[26] Asked in the same documentary if the Jews were monotheistic with a religion distinct from the Canaanite religion, Herbert Niehr from the University of Tübingen answered: "Between the 10th century and the beginning of their exile in 586 there was polytheism as normal religion all throughout Israel; only afterwards things begin to change and very slowly they begin to change. I would say it is only correct for the last centuries, maybe only from the period of the Maccabees, that means the second century BC, so in the time of Jesus of Nazareth it is true, but for the time before it, it is not true."

It seems probable to me that the worshipping of idols or statues of Gods only stopped in Jerusalem after the Babylonian Exile (circa 520 B.C.E.). Exactly when is a harder question. The best answer for the moment seems to be around the time of the Maccabean Revolt (160).

Note 2 Maccabees 12:

Quote:

38 Judas took his army and came into the city of Adullam. When the seventh day arrived, they purified themselves according to custom and observed the Sabbath. 39 On the next day, it was necessary for Judas and his men to recover the bodies of the fallen and to bury them with their relatives in the ancestral tombs. 40 They found sacred charms, idols from Jamnia that the Law forbids Jews to wear, under the clothing of each of the dead. It became clear to all why these men had fallen. 41 Then they all praised the Lord, the righteous judge who makes hidden things visible. 42 They appealed to God and prayed for the sin that had been committed to be completely wiped out. The honorable Judas called on the people to keep themselves free from sin, since everyone had seen what had happened because of the sin of those who fell.

It seems that it was normal for Jews who fought for the zealot religious fanatic Judas Maccabeus to carry idols. We have to assume that the ones who fell in Maccabees' army was little different from the ones who didn't fall and that many of them carried idols too. Most likely the 50% of the Jewish population that fought against Maccabee all carried or believed in idols. Thus, around 160 B.C.E. probably 75% of the Jewish population worshipped idols.

Note this from THE TERRITORIAL EXTENT AND
DEMOGRAPHY OF YEHUD/JUDEA IN THE
PERSIAN AND EARLY HELLENISTIC PERIODS by Israel Finkelstein:

Quote:

Judea of the early Hellenistic period, including the early days of the
Hasmoneans, was still limited in territory, though somewhat larger than
Persian-period Yehud. It extended from Beth-zur in the south to the area
of Mizpah in the north, and probably included some territory in the upper,
eastern Shephelah. Its population grew dramatically – it is estimated
to have numbered ca. 40,000 people. This estimate validates the
figures given to the forces of Judas Maccabeus in 1 Maccabees, but is
significantly smaller than past estimates for both the population of Judea
and the over-all force of the Hasmoneans in the 160s BC.

Of the 40,000 Jews around in the 160's B.C.E., probably 10,000 or fewer rejected the worship of idols.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Quote:

Originally Posted by manwithdream

Did average people and/or kings bring idols with them to wars in Bible times? Did they set them up in any way or just carry them if they did bring them to battles?

Kenneth Greifer

manwithdream · 01-22-2012, 03:52 PM

It sounds to me like idol worship was very common and I assume some idols were small enough to be taken everywhere, so it would make sense that soldiers carried them and after battles the winner would probably be surrounded by dead soldiers and their idols. I always thought of idols as big statues, but I guess that is wrong.

This helps me understand Psalm 138:1 which could say that David will praise G-d before gods. Some people say it shows that David and everyone else believed in many gods with G-d as the top G-d, but it could mean that he praised G-d in front of idols that he was around after battles. He would win the battle because of G-d (in his belief and mine), so he would then praise G-d in front of the idols I suppose. It is a possible explanation. Some people say that human judges were called "gods", but I don't think there is any proof of that.

aeebee50 · 01-23-2012, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeebee50

Judah did their worship of idols. http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/12judah.html

Yes, but those weren’t idols to them.

Well, I tried to find something.

01-22-2012, 12:13 PM	#1
manwithdream Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: united states Posts: 156	idols on the battlefields? Did average people and/or kings bring idols with them to wars in Bible times? Did they set them up in any way or just carry them if they did bring them to battles? Kenneth Greifer

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01-22-2012, 12:39 PM	#3
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	What do you mean "Bible Times?"

01-22-2012, 12:44 PM	#4
aeebee50 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Texas Posts: 5,810	Judah did their worship of idols. http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/12judah.html

01-22-2012, 01:08 PM	#6
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	No one's idols are idols to them.

01-22-2012, 03:52 PM	#8
manwithdream Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: united states Posts: 156	It sounds to me like idol worship was very common and I assume some idols were small enough to be taken everywhere, so it would make sense that soldiers carried them and after battles the winner would probably be surrounded by dead soldiers and their idols. I always thought of idols as big statues, but I guess that is wrong. This helps me understand Psalm 138:1 which could say that David will praise G-d before gods. Some people say it shows that David and everyone else believed in many gods with G-d as the top G-d, but it could mean that he praised G-d in front of idols that he was around after battles. He would win the battle because of G-d (in his belief and mine), so he would then praise G-d in front of the idols I suppose. It is a possible explanation. Some people say that human judges were called "gods", but I don't think there is any proof of that.

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